Life In 19x19
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GoGoD Winter 2017
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15301		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:31 am ]
Post subject:  GoGoD Winter 2017
Those looking for Christmas prezzies may note that I have just passed the latest version of the GoGoD database (95000 games) and Names Dictionary (4200 entries) to SmartGo (and only there). Anders is hoping to release his version very soon.

This version contains some more new Go Seigen games (but more still to come next year), and - for the first time - some games provided by Go in which Chinese players of the 1930s start experimenting with New Fuseki (more of those next time as well).
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
Will it also be available on https://gogodonline.co.uk/ ?
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
I haven't decided yet.
Author:  xela [ Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
John Fairbairn wrote:
I haven't decided yet.


Perhaps I can help with the decision. If you make it available as a download of the SGF files, then I will buy it (-: If it's locked up in a proprietary format, then I won't buy it.

Reason: I want to use it on Linux with Kombilo, and occasionally I want to make printed game records with sgf2dg. In general I try to support open source software and open data formats.

For what it's worth, I still have the physical CD of GoGoD Winter 2008 on my shelf, and it's one of the best purchases I ever made as a go player. Thanks for all the great work!
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
Exactly. Individual SGF files (or one ZIP, from which they unpack) are essential. Proprietary files are useless.

I do not know in which format they come with SmartGo, but I would not need SmartGo so do not want to pay extra for what I do not need. I only need the SGFs and maybe the names dictionary etc. as HTM or PDF.
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
The decision has nothing to do with any of what is implied above. I haven't got the time or patience to deal with an online presence. I delegated that to a daughter on maternity leave. She goes back to work in January and likewise will be short of time. There are other factors.
Author:  xela [ Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
Thanks John for the clarification. I'm sorry that I misinterpreted you. Your position is understandable, if slightly frustrating for some of your fans (-: I hope something can be worked out.
Author:  ez4u [ Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
John,

I think it would be very sad if it turns out there is no way to continue to offer the database. While I think that GoGoD is a great add on for SmartGo, I also think that SmartGo is a limited interface to GoGoD. I have been eagerly waiting to see the latest fruits of all that you have been doing with historical games. GoGoD is a real treasure, even if it reflects a relatively minor part of your ever-impressive knowledge of our favorite game. Please do your best to find a solution to your production issues. As a devoted user since 2002, I have only four years to go to hit twenty years! Don't let me down at this point. :bow:
Author:  hyperpape [ Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
RobertJasiek wrote:
but I would not need SmartGo so do not want to pay extra for what I do not need.
SmartGo costs less than GoGoD used to cost ten years ago. It costs less than three updates at the price from this summer, and is updated for a long time, so the cost is still probably lower.

Like others, I'd be happy to see SGFs if it's not too burdensome, but let's not make unreasonable complaints about the price.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
Uploading a ZIP and changing a webpage info from "2017" to "2018" takes a few minutes. Time problems related to individual customer / payment handling are solved easily: Let SmartGo have and save the individual SGFs so that the user has them as such.

The only real problem I can imagine that might not be solved quickly is sorting out those SGFs depending on copyright of third person creators of specific SGFs / games.
Author:  Kirby [ Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
RobertJasiek wrote:
Uploading a ZIP and changing a webpage info from "2017" to "2018" takes a few minutes. Time problems related to individual customer / payment handling are solved easily: Let SmartGo have and save the individual SGFs so that the user has them as such.

The only real problem I can imagine that might not be solved quickly is sorting out those SGFs depending on copyright of third person creators of specific SGFs / games.


I doubt there's a technical reason that the games can't be saved as individual SGFs. Having them in a proprietary format gives users a reason to purchase SmartGo, which may be an aspect of the original agreement. You said that you do not need SmartGo, but this would be one reason to buy it :-) In all seriousness, though, I get that you'd prefer SGF files, and that'd certainly be more convenient for some users. But I can also understand the rationale of someone trying to sell a piece of software, and using a collection of games in proprietary format as a selling point.

For what it's worth, SGF was invented by the creator of SmartGo, Anders Kierulf, in 1987 (http://www.red-bean.com/sgf/user_guide/#what), so I'm sure that he's aware that he could make the files available in SGF format.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
Kirby wrote:
SGF files, and that'd certainly be more convenient


More convenient is also an aspect but the major aspects are time for viewing, time for searching, time for editing, editing capabilities. With individual SGFs and GoWrite, it works. With proprietary files in any software or individual files in SmartGo, it does not work for me.
Author:  Kirby [ Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
RobertJasiek wrote:
Kirby wrote:
SGF files, and that'd certainly be more convenient


More convenient is also an aspect but the major aspects are time for viewing, time for searching, time for editing, editing capabilities. With individual SGFs and GoWrite, it works. With proprietary files in any software or individual files in SmartGo, it does not work for me.


Yep. SGF is a nice format.
Author:  ahd [ Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
John Fairbairn wrote:
The decision has nothing to do with any of what is implied above. I haven't got the time or patience to deal with an online presence. I delegated that to a daughter on maternity leave. She goes back to work in January and likewise will be short of time. There are other factors.


...well, it was nice while it lasted. Nobody is obliged to keep legacy things going forever, just for some go players who won't move on and get with the new bigger picture. And it's true that the other factors are none of our business. And the only person who can judge how much time and patience you want to spend on the legacy customers is you.

Best of luck with your future endeavours.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has considered offering to do online distribution *for* you, though. A substantial proportion of the community here could probably do that in their sleep.
Author:  Shenoute [ Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
ahd wrote:
(...) Nobody is obliged to keep legacy things going forever, just for some go players who won't move on and get with the new bigger picture. (...)

That's uncalled for (especially when, in my very humble opinion, the "new bigger picture" doesn't seem to offer any clear improvement while at the same time coming with clear drawbacks for the customer).
I'm glad Gogod existed as it did for years and I'd never dream of telling John Fairbairn what he should do or not do. That being said, your characterization of myself (and probably others) as dim-witted individuals who are unable to see the light is something I take issue with.
Author:  ahd [ Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
Shenoute wrote:
ahd wrote:
(...) Nobody is obliged to keep legacy things going forever, just for some go players who won't move on and get with the new bigger picture. (...)

(...)That being said, your characterizetion of myself (and probably others) as dim-witted individuals who are unable to see the light is something I take issue with.


Oh, I *am* one of those legacy customers. I just barely date back to the Actual Disk era. I have been enjoying the more recent innovations of pulling all the untold thousands of man-hours of curated go across to my computer directly and delving through it in my Copious Free Time (tm). Whatever implication you feel I have thrown at you, I have splashed on myself as well.

But the problem I face is this: Mark Hall left it all to John Fairbairn, no strings attached. No promises were made to keep all of the bits, rather than only the ones John felt were convenient to maintain solely by himself. No promises to keep it available in a way that maximised access and flexibility, rather than other criteria. As near as I can tell from over here in the opposite hemisphere, John can and has done with it what John chose to, and this is exactly what Mark wanted.

There are no words I have to persuade John to do otherwise, so from my humble point of view, the thing's gone.

I am *aware* that "delegate the online distribution to a volunteer with no time" is not the only choice he could have made. I'm sure there are any number of people lurking in this thread who would be happy to deliver the standard lectures on what they would do if they were John Fairbairn. We none of us are. Bigger picture has been drawn, we are not in it. What infinitesimal probability exists of that picture being redrawn, won't improve by nagging the owner to do what we want. I note from the lack of such nagging in this thread, that no, we are not dim-witted individuals unable to see the light. We're just sad.

Remaining options are: live with what is in the Summer 2017 edition, buy SmartGo, or become some variety of thief. I'm a Linux user and barely first dan, so the first option it is. When I run out of what the games in the last open edition can teach me, I'll ask AlphaGo For Dummies (2038 edition) for further lessons.
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
Can I mediate to nip a rather unpleasant spat in the bud, please?

First let me correct the misinterpretations:

(1) I have not stopped issuing (or working on) GoGoD. It has been issued to SmartGo.

(2) I have simply not made a decision yet as to issuing it online. FWIW my thoughts are inclined towards switching to a Spring and Autumn schedule, leaving Winter and Summer to SmartGo. That leaves some time to see how things pan out in the back-to-work scenario. But SmartGo may adapt in the future and I will respond to that also.

(3) It is good to be reminded of T Mark at this time of year, close to the anniversary of his death 4 years ago. I promised him to try to achieve our original goal of 100,000 games before we both stopped (as I have stated before). We are now on over 95,000 games, so in a year's time or so, we could be having the same conversations anyway.

(4) The number of people who buy online as opposed to via SmartGo is tiny, so this is not a marketing issue. It's a test of my good nature, which is regularly tested in various ways - spats like this included.

(5) An online presence means more than sales. I means mainly dealing with mail from members of the go public - which includes quite a few narky people and people who won't RTFM. That is the issue with the online presence, not the setting up of site (which we have got already, anyway). Lest you think I understate tsi problem, let me remind you of gogameguru.

On a quite separate issue, I have just learned (accidentally, so it may be old news to AGA members), that Slate & Shell is n longer stocking paper books and that means about 5 or 6 of my titles (including Kamakura) are no longer available. The work of converting to e-books is just too great for Bill Cobb. In theory I could do it, but it doesn't make sense at present because (a) I have no time, (b) most people who want the books probably have them already, so only marginal sales would be possible, and (c) I have other books in the pipeline.

So if you want these books you should probably scurry round vendors who stocked up from Bill Cobb. But ley me remind you, too, that out of print does NOT mean out of copyright.
Author:  ahd [ Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
John Fairbairn wrote:
Can I mediate to nip a rather unpleasant spat in the bud, please?

First let me correct the misinterpretations:

(1) I have not stopped issuing (or working on) GoGoD. It has been issued to SmartGo.

(2) I have simply not made a decision yet as to issuing it online. FWIW my thoughts are inclined towards switching to a Spring and Autumn schedule, leaving Winter and Summer to SmartGo. That leaves some time to see how things pan out in the back-to-work scenario. But SmartGo may adapt in the future and I will respond to that also.


That's heartening.

(Still not buying SmartGo for my Linux desktop or putting go on my phone, but as stated, I'm a minority in the market who is glad to have gotten what I've gotten so far and doesn't expect to dictate your choices or to be particularly catered to. I don't think anyone in this thread expects those things, no matter how clumsy my phrasing has gotten.)

Have a merry Christmas.
Author:  Shenoute [ Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
ahd wrote:
Oh, I *am* one of those legacy customers. (...)

It seems I misinterpreted your comments then. Sorry for that.
Author:  ahd [ Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GoGoD Winter 2017
Shenoute wrote:
It seems I misinterpreted your comments then. Sorry for that.


No worries. Have a merry Christmas.
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