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 Post subject: Jowa's Go Advice (Japanese)
Post #1 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:40 pm 
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Maybe somebody can provide a good translation. :)

丈和の囲碁訓戒

三法あり。石立て、分れ、堅めなり。この三つ宜しき時は、其の業大功なり。三つの内、一つを得ば凡ならず。凡そ三十手、或は五十手、百手にして勝負を知るを修行の第一とす。

修行に正邪二つあり。正道に志せば上達し、邪道に志せば下達す。

邪道とは欲心深きを云う。欲心は見えぬ手を見出さんとして、調子長く成って起きる手筋を云う。知らざれば、考えてもなかなか見えぬものなり。故に打つほどに下達す。

正道は欲心深からざるを云う。其の術、早打ちにして、手筋を心掛けるにあり。早き時は欲心出る隙なし。欲心出でざれば、手筋好く、次第に上達す。これ初心第一の心意なり。

また地取り、石取り、敵地へ深入りし、石を逃げる、みな悪し。

それ地取りは隙なり。石取りは無理なり。深入りは欲心なり。石を逃げるは臆病なり。故に地と石とを取らず、深入りせば、石を捨て打つべし。

地を取らざるは堅固、石を取らざるは素直、深入りせざるは無欲なり。石を捨てるは尖(するど)きなり。

とかく我が石を備え堅めるを第一とし、次に敵の透間を打つべし。かくの如くするときは、手筋素直にして上達速やかなり。初心の業、正道に入り易く、上達し易からんことを示すのみ。

Source: http://mignon.ddo.jp/assembly/mignon/go ... ikan0.html
Navigate to the Honinbo Jowa page.

Edit: Dead link. :sad:

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Last edited by Bill Spight on Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Jowa's Go Advice (Japanese)
Post #2 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:42 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Maybe somebody can provide a good translation. :)

I will, after my works to do, within 24 hours. I will do my best to provide something "good".

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 Post subject: Re: Jowa's Go Advice (Japanese)
Post #3 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:46 pm 
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lovelove wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Maybe somebody can provide a good translation. :)

I will, after my works to do, within 24 hours. I will do my best to provide something "good".


Great! :)

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Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


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 Post subject: Re: Jowa's Go Advice (Japanese)
Post #4 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:44 pm 
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Here is a quick, thought-free attempt while I can still keep my eyes open. I might change things tomorrow. Re the alternative thread, note that I don't think tesuji means tesuji here. It refers to 'way of playing' (as it often does in modern texts). I don't detect any Buddhist/Zen flavour (Confucianist, if anything, but even that's a push).

TRANSLATION

Jowa's Go Counsels

There are three processes. They are the fuseki, middle game and yose.

To be good at these three things is the highest achievement in one's studies. To acquire one of these three things is out of the ordinary. But in general, to know the outcome after 30, or 50 or 100, moves is the prime goal of study.

There are both right and wrong ways to study. If you aspire to the right way you will improve. If you aspire to the wrong way you will deteriorate.

The wrong way refers to being profoundly greedy. Greed refers a way of playing which arises by trying to discover moves that are hard to see and thus drawing things out. They are moves you will not see, unless you know them, no matter how much you think about them. Therefore, the more you play this way the more you deteriorate.

The right way refers to not being profoundly greedy. That skill lies in concentrating on a way of playing in which you play faster. When you play quickly, there is no time for greed to emerge. If greed does not emerge, the way you playing will be better and you will progess to the next stage.

Also, concentrating on taking territory, capturing stones, going too deep into the opponent's territory, running groups away - all these things are bad.

For the territory taken will have defects. Capturing stones will overtax you. Invading deeply will make you covetous. And running groups away will make you cowardly.

Therefore, do not worry about taking territory or stones, and if you have invaded too deeply, you must sacrifice your stones.

Be solid without worrying about territory; be modest without worrying about capturing; be abstemious without worrying about invading deeply.

Sacrificing stones is the sharpest way to play. But the first requirement is to defend and solidify your own groups; the next is to play at the opponent's weak points. If you proceed like this, with a modest way of playing, you will improve rapidly.

This merely indicates that when beginning one's studies it is easier to start on the right road and then you will be more likely to improve.

ENDS

The source is Ando Nyoi's Zain Danso (Comprehensive Discourses on Go - which is what L19 should be), which was written just over a century ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Jowa's Go Advice (Japanese)
Post #5 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:54 pm 
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very nice advice, thank you for sharing and translating.

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 Post subject: Re: Jowa's Go Advice (Japanese)
Post #6 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:22 pm 
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Many thanks, John. :bow:

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 Post subject: Re: Jowa's Go Advice (Japanese)
Post #7 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:47 pm 
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:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

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 Post subject: Re: Jowa's Go Advice (Japanese)
Post #8 Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:11 pm 
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I was thinking more about this piece on tonight's constitutional. In particular I was wondering why the words Jowa used for fuseki, middle game and yose disappeared, given that they were in use for centuries, seem perfectly serviceable, and had the kudos of being used and possibly invented by Honinbo heads. I have no sure answers, but now that we may have a brief respite from derailment of threads, I invite others to suggest an explanation and so continue a discussion. But first my own as yet unformed thoughts.

1. The word ishidate (Jowa's) for fuseki means 'establishment of groups'. It appears in Honinbo Sansa's poetry but perhaps has the defect that it says what the opening is but not how it proceeds. There are several reasons that may matter. I suspect the prime reason may be the innovations introduced by Honinbo Shuei (end 19th century). Although he used the word ishidate himself, he was recognised as breathing fresh and vigorous life into the opening (which is what his book Hoen Shinpo - translated on the GoGoD CD - is all about). He did this by emphasising, amongst other things, wider and higher extensions. The term fuseki (lit. spreading out of stones) could be seen as more descriptive of how to achieve the new opening style. Further, Shuho founded the revolutionary Hoensha, which kept going in parallel to, and often in opposition to, the Honinbo family. One of the Hoensha's leading lights was Iwasa Kei who later became its head. If we look at the titles of books published around that time, we will see that in 1909 there were quite a few that used ishidate in the title, but there are also a couple that use fuseki - and both are by Iwasa. He may have done this to highlight the new brand of go that the Hoensha was heir to. At any rate, by Taisho times - the following decade - the term fuseki took over and by Showa times (1926) it had ousted its rival.

2. Connected with that, though, may have been the need to allocate a new use for the word joseki. If you look at Edo period books, many have the word joseki in the title, but its meaning there is really (and literally) just 'fixed stones', and it applies to the opening as a whole and not just to the corners. By the early 20th century, study of corner variations was beginning to be a major preoccupation, and it is easy to see in those circumstances that people liked the idea of making a distinction by twinning the terms joseki and fuseki.

3. As to the middle game, Jowa's term is wakare - division (of the spoils). Perhaps the wish to reserve this term for evaluating josekis (now limited to corners) became combined with the feeling that there was a need to express another facet of Shuho's revolution - the fact that centre of the board began to loom large (though it was probably his successor Honinbo Shuei who first successfully demonstrated the value of the centre, and so attracted so much attention from modern players from Go Seigen onwards). The modern term chuubansen thus evolved. Although this is conventionally translated 'middle game', I suspect there is a drawback in that most westerners will think of this in its temporal chess sense, i.e. the middle part of the game between the beginning and the end. In fact, the Japanese term is spatial and more strictly means 'centre fights', and so successfully captures one essence of Shuho-style opening development. That would certainly be a good enough reason for the new term to become ensconced.

4. Katame, however, I find harder to explain away. It means 'solidifying' and so is a handy term for boundary plays. It is also excellent in shining a light on Jowa's thinking about the folly of trying to capture territory too early (i.e. it still needs solidifying). Yose has a very similar sense (i.e. it does NOT mean endgame) in that it refers to bringing groups together to seal off the boundaries (the even older term than katame likewise meant tying up loose ends). Perhaps yose is seen as more subtle than katame, rejecting the overtones of arguably clumsy solidification regardless of where the opponent's stones are in favour of overtones of moving towards and engaging with the enemy. But all this is highly speculative.

In fact this whole piece is speculative, though I do think it may stand as a way of explaining historical developments in go even if the etymologies are false. So over to you for your speculations.


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 Post subject: Re: Jowa's Go Advice (Japanese)
Post #9 Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:30 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
[...] I suspect the prime reason may be the innovations introduced by Honinbo Shuei (end 19th century). Although he used the word ishidate himself, he was recognised as breathing fresh and vigorous life into the opening (which is what his book Hoen Shinpo - translated on the GoGoD CD - is all about). [...]
I'm a bit confused on whether you are referring to Shuho, Shuei or both here, and the succeeding text (e.g. Shuho wrote Hoen Shinpo, not Shuei).

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Post #10 Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:45 am 
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To me the central piece in his advice is (per John's translation):

"The wrong way refers to being profoundly greedy. Greed refers a way of playing which arises by trying to discover moves that are hard to see and thus drawing things out. They are moves you will not see, unless you know them, no matter how much you think about them. Therefore, the more you play this way the more you deteriorate.

The right way refers to not being profoundly greedy. That skill lies in concentrating on a way of playing in which you play faster. When you play quickly, there is no time for greed to emerge. If greed does not emerge, the way you playing will be better and you will progess to the next stage.
"

Dangerously translating this to our present era, it seems as if Jowa says: play fast games on the Internet, playing moves that you understand. Then analyze your losses to discover better ways of playing that you now start to understand. Play more fast games.

This is both remarkable and encouraging.

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 Post subject: Re: Jowa's Go Advice (Japanese)
Post #11 Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:08 am 
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Knotwilg wrote:
To me the central piece in his advice is (per John's translation):

"The wrong way refers to being profoundly greedy. Greed refers a way of playing which arises by trying to discover moves that are hard to see and thus drawing things out. They are moves you will not see, unless you know them, no matter how much you think about them. Therefore, the more you play this way the more you deteriorate.

The right way refers to not being profoundly greedy. That skill lies in concentrating on a way of playing in which you play faster. When you play quickly, there is no time for greed to emerge. If greed does not emerge, the way you playing will be better and you will progess to the next stage.
"

Dangerously translating this to our present era, it seems as if Jowa says: play fast games on the Internet, playing moves that you understand. Then analyze your losses to discover better ways of playing that you now start to understand. Play more fast games.

This is both remarkable and encouraging.


I don't think he's talking about blitz games at all. I think the slow/fast he uses refers to how many moves it takes for the outcome of the game to become clear. He's saying you shouldn't try to use tricks and complicated moves to draw the game out when your play has flaws. Instead, you should play normally, notice those flaws, and try to correct them in the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Jowa's Go Advice (Japanese)
Post #12 Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:37 am 
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skydyr wrote:
I don't think he's talking about blitz games at all. I think the slow/fast he uses refers to how many moves it takes for the outcome of the game to become clear. He's saying you shouldn't try to use tricks and complicated moves to draw the game out when your play has flaws. Instead, you should play normally, notice those flaws, and try to correct them in the future.


It's all speculation, but while we are speculating, I think the above interpretation is better. A drawn-out game in Jowa's time was probably one that didn't finish the same day it started. :D

I don't know how many true beginners Jowa would have had to teach, but I might speculate that because of the OTB nature of play, students were expected to remember their games. If they were playing so fast they couldn't do that, it might result in some chastisement. That would probably eliminate the faster blitz paces in use today.


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 Post subject: Re: Jowa's Go Advice (Japanese)
Post #13 Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:26 pm 
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skydyr wrote:
Knotwilg wrote:
To me the central piece in his advice is (per John's translation):

"The wrong way refers to being profoundly greedy. Greed refers a way of playing which arises by trying to discover moves that are hard to see and thus drawing things out. They are moves you will not see, unless you know them, no matter how much you think about them. Therefore, the more you play this way the more you deteriorate.

The right way refers to not being profoundly greedy. That skill lies in concentrating on a way of playing in which you play faster. When you play quickly, there is no time for greed to emerge. If greed does not emerge, the way you playing will be better and you will progess to the next stage.
"

Dangerously translating this to our present era, it seems as if Jowa says: play fast games on the Internet, playing moves that you understand. Then analyze your losses to discover better ways of playing that you now start to understand. Play more fast games.

This is both remarkable and encouraging.


I don't think he's talking about blitz games at all. I think the slow/fast he uses refers to how many moves it takes for the outcome of the game to become clear. He's saying you shouldn't try to use tricks and complicated moves to draw the game out when your play has flaws. Instead, you should play normally, notice those flaws, and try to correct them in the future.




I don't know what is consider playing a move fast in Jowa's time... but this part is definetively refering to time per move, not to the lenght of the game, really sound like blitz (in the sense of using the intuition and the basics to play a pure simple move rather than overthinking a complex greedy strategy).


其の術、早打ちにして、手筋を心掛けるにあり。早き時は欲心出る隙なし。
Sono jutsu, hayauchi ni shite, tesuji o kokorogakeru ni ari. Hayaki toki wa yokushin deru suki nashi.

With that technique, playing a/each move fast, the good move "will be borne in your mind"*. When you play a/each move fast there is no likelihood for greed to emerge.



*kokorogakeru is a dificult word to translate, it has lot of meanings... for example: "to be commited" or "to take care"... (literally: be placed + heart) traditionally in the sense that being so important that you care with all your hart, so it always in your thoughts.


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