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 Post subject: Re: Getting over your wall.
Post #41 Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 4:14 pm 
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SmoothOper wrote:
Hades12 wrote:
I here from a lot of players at club that you usually hit a wall around 5k. How do you get over said wall, and have you guys experienced this?


On IGS, I am about 5kyu, it does seem that there is a bit of a wall.

I don't necessarily know the answer, but some things I have tossed around are.

A) Need to be smarter, not just have better style.
B) The informational materials on strategy aren't comprehensive enough for higher levels. The books I have say something like this should be good up to about 1 dan, which was a 1 dan like 50 years ago.
C) Learn the standard sequences more thoroughly. At this level people seem to know the correct Joseki better, and also know how to punish the ones they use better. Which is a shame, because I just figured out how to punish the deviations for the ones I know.
D) Practice counting, I wish there were tsumego like problems for counting, because I find this skill doesn't develop in parallel with tsumego.

I have looked around there are number of books "Breaking through to shodan", "Raising to shodan", they all seem to be oriented towards Joseki sequences.


A) This is a little vague as to what you mean, but I think I disagree. There should always be fundamentals you can improve on. They are just 1d fundamentals instead of 8k fundamentals for example.

C) Just to play devils advocate here. Might the next step be choosing the correct joseki in the global sense? Not just playing the one you know correctly.

D) Have you considered looking into endgame problems? They require counting to solve, and if you can settle boarders quickly(by having practiced) you can count the whole board score better. Alternatively you could make your own problems. Take a pro game that goes to scoring and go X moves in and try to count the current score. Go Y moves a head and repeat. Finally you might try treating the last 10 moves like an endgame problem and try to work out the move order that results in the game score.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting over your wall.
Post #42 Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 4:36 pm 
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If you hit a wall you gotta change something:

1. Check if your playing style suits you and/or if it has some fundamental defects, otherwise try new things.
2. Memeorize pro games (about 100-120) games.
3. Do some go-problems.
4. Stop worrying about your rank. If your brain is made for 2k then this is what it is. Trying and cursing to overcome this wall'd be like a cat trying to fly like a bird...some things are just not meant for you, learn to live with it or you will have a lot to grief about that is not to change anyway (which is stupid and a waste).

Point No. 4 is important, because it keeps the fun alive and you can keep perspective. Basically everybody should be able to make it to 4-5D if one does Go 5h/day with a pro as a teacher. But is this wise?

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 Post subject: Re: Getting over your wall.
Post #43 Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 5:41 pm 
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Twitchy Go wrote:
A) This is a little vague as to what you mean, but I think I disagree. There should always be fundamentals you can improve on. They are just 1d fundamentals instead of 8k fundamentals for example.



Sure, a slam dunk might be considered a fundamental at some basketball level, but if you don't have the hops, you might need to hit the weight room.

Twitchy Go wrote:
C) Just to play devils advocate here. Might the next step be choosing the correct joseki in the global sense? Not just playing the one you know correctly.

Yes, but this sort relates to the dearth of literature in this area, most of the comprehensive strategy books state they aren't suited for 1D+ training. There are quite a few that have solved all the problems related to some strategy including joseki choice, and you don't always get to choose.

Twitchy Go wrote:
D) Have you considered looking into endgame problems? They require counting to solve, and if you can settle boarders quickly(by having practiced) you can count the whole board score better. Alternatively you could make your own problems. Take a pro game that goes to scoring and go X moves in and try to count the current score. Go Y moves a head and repeat. Finally you might try treating the last 10 moves like an endgame problem and try to work out the move order that results in the game score.


Yes, I have looked at endgame problems, that helps, I think the problem is I need to be able to count territory faster so that I can do it more often.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting over your wall.
Post #44 Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 6:30 pm 
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SmoothOper wrote:
Sure, a slam dunk might be considered a fundamental at some basketball level, but if you don't have the hops, you might need to hit the weight room.

True, so do you mean that it is the execution of the concept not the concept itself that is(might be) the problem when facing a wall. For example, someone understands the idea of leaning attacks, but doesn't have the reading power to take advantage of the influence gained in the coming fight. If so I agree with you.
SmoothOper wrote:
Yes, but this sort relates to the dearth of literature in this area, most of the comprehensive strategy books state they aren't suited for 1D+ training. There are quite a few that have solved all the problems related to some strategy including joseki choice, and you don't always get to choose.

While you don't always get to choose which joseki is played you can still influence what line it moves down and resist an unfavorable result. And I haven't looked at theory books in quite some time and can't comment on their effectiveness near/above dan level. However I have found Yuan Zhou's Single Digit Kyu Game Commentaries useful. As well as lectures and lessons from high dans/pros.
SmoothOper wrote:
Yes, I have looked at endgame problems, that helps, I think the problem is I need to be able to count territory faster so that I can do it more often.

Here is an idea I've heard but haven't tried. Begin by picking arbitrary move numbers to count at. Estimate the score at move 30, 50, 100 and so on. In theory this won't take too much of your game time and you'll get better at counting as you continue doing it. And I think us SDK players really only need a rough idea of the point balance for the most part. Just enough to know if it is wiser to reduce or invade, contain or kill. So just taking a few soundings over the game seems good enough while you're getting the feel of counting I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting over your wall.
Post #45 Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 7:03 pm 
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Twitchy Go wrote:
SmoothOper wrote:
Sure, a slam dunk might be considered a fundamental at some basketball level, but if you don't have the hops, you might need to hit the weight room.

True, so do you mean that it is the execution of the concept not the concept itself that is(might be) the problem when facing a wall. For example, someone understands the idea of leaning attacks, but doesn't have the reading power to take advantage of the influence gained in the coming fight. If so I agree with you.



No, smarter is demonstrable in reading sometimes, but reading isn't the only payoff, back to the basketball analogy, if someone has some hops, they are also going to be able get extra rebounds, block more shots, and be more open for passes, be able to shoot over people etc. as well as be more efficient in practice in addition to dunking. In this way I mean smarter, not better at reading.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting over your wall.
Post #46 Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:40 am 
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daal wrote:
The question for me revolves around eliminating mistakes. I've certainly identified a buttload of them, but aside from playing on the first line in the opening, I doubt that there are many that I would never make, so it comes down to what causes me to make them.

...

I dunno, maybe I'm just spouting BS, but then again, it's not through lack of examining my mistakes that I haven't gotten stronger. I just keep making them.

Daal,
Not sure what to say about this, other than, "Stop!" If you truly know what you are doing wrong, stop doing it! Play less instinctively and more thoughtfully. If you are making these mistakes due to time pressure, play slower games.

Obviously this doesn't apply to reading mistakes, but it can relate there too.

For example, I recently played out a bad sequence which I initially misread. "When did you see it was bad, and why did you continue to play it?" asked my strong friend. She then showed me several sequences in which the mistake could prove useful later if left alone. This was a wonderful lesson in aji. Left as-is the stones weren't immediately useful, but could influence outside play later, or even spring back to life. But after playing it out, they could never help me again. After this vivid example, I believe I do this far less often. (Why do kyu players play out bad sequences, anyway? Self-flagellation? Desire to watch the full car-crash?)

Back to the issue at hand. Play more thoughtfully. If you know a move is wrong, just don't play it. Find a new mistake to make instead. Truly, not learning from your mistakes might be the best explanation of the wall.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting over your wall.
Post #47 Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 12:45 pm 
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A "wall" occurs when all your previous deficiencies manifest themselves too often in your current games. If you consider your rank to be an "average" of all your strengths and weaknesses, then if you're weak in a few areas where other people aren't, then you'll consistently lose to them. This is also why sometimes a 6k might be able to beat a 3-4k, but not consistently.

Yes, doing problems and studying joseki help, but they very well might not get to the heart of the matter. If you keep having the wrong concept being super awesome at tsumego really won't solve any of your problems.

The easiest answer is to just get a teacher. That said, it will be hard for you to see benefits immediately. Every game you play is different and if you are deficient in a lot of things, one lesson will not fix everything, nor will that lesson possibly show up for awhile. And that's assuming you learn and completley internalize the lesson afterwards.

It is possible that stronger players can help, but they might not even have the correct answer for you. Even if they do, they might not always explain it well. Teaching is an art after all.

That said, if you're doing it on your own, it will not be easy, but it can be doable. It will just have to be a lot of introspection and self-review to figure it out. It's the whole thing of "we don't know what makes us incompetent, cause if we did we'd fix it".


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 Post subject: Re: Getting over your wall.
Post #48 Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:04 pm 
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often wrote:
A "wall" occurs when all your previous deficiencies manifest themselves too often in your current games. If you consider your rank to be an "average" of all your strengths and weaknesses, then if you're weak in a few areas where other people aren't, then you'll consistently lose to them. This is also why sometimes a 6k might be able to beat a 3-4k, but not consistently.

Yes, doing problems and studying joseki help, but they very well might not get to the heart of the matter. If you keep having the wrong concept being super awesome at tsumego really won't solve any of your problems.

The easiest answer is to just get a teacher. That said, it will be hard for you to see benefits immediately. Every game you play is different and if you are deficient in a lot of things, one lesson will not fix everything, nor will that lesson possibly show up for awhile. And that's assuming you learn and completley internalize the lesson afterwards.

It is possible that stronger players can help, but they might not even have the correct answer for you. Even if they do, they might not always explain it well. Teaching is an art after all.

That said, if you're doing it on your own, it will not be easy, but it can be doable. It will just have to be a lot of introspection and self-review to figure it out. It's the whole thing of "we don't know what makes us incompetent, cause if we did we'd fix it".


For me I have on occasion debated, is it my weaknesses too weak or my strengths not strong enough. It makes a difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting over your wall.
Post #49 Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:17 pm 
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SmoothOper wrote:
For me I have on occasion debated, is it my weaknesses too weak or my strengths not strong enough. It makes a difference.

The former. You can get to 1d without any particular strength or tesuji cleverness.

No offense meant. The first step is eliminating/reducing mistakes.

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Post #50 Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 5:44 pm 
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wineandgolover wrote:
SmoothOper wrote:
For me I have on occasion debated, is it my weaknesses too weak or my strengths not strong enough. It makes a difference.

The former. You can get to 1d without any particular strength or tesuji cleverness.

No offense meant. The first step is eliminating/reducing mistakes.


A weakness isn't a mistake. Weaknesses are difficult situations to handle that arise out of the particular fuseki, that can't be eliminated, but need to be dealt with or compensated in other aspects of the Fuseki. Hoshi points can always be invaded at the san-san, its a weakness, not protecting at the correct time, that is a mistake.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting over your wall.
Post #51 Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 5:53 pm 
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SmoothOper wrote:
A weakness isn't a mistake. Weaknesses are difficult situations to handle that arise out of the particular fuseki, that can't be eliminated, but need to be dealt with or compensated in other aspects of the Fuseki. Hoshi points can always be invaded at the san-san, its a weakness, not protecting at the correct time, that is a mistake.


That's the weakness of a position. A weakness of a player is a propensity to play a certain class of mistakes.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting over your wall.
Post #52 Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 8:45 am 
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Polama wrote:
SmoothOper wrote:
A weakness isn't a mistake. Weaknesses are difficult situations to handle that arise out of the particular fuseki, that can't be eliminated, but need to be dealt with or compensated in other aspects of the Fuseki. Hoshi points can always be invaded at the san-san, its a weakness, not protecting at the correct time, that is a mistake.


That's the weakness of a position. A weakness of a player is a propensity to play a certain class of mistakes.


In my opinion having a weakness(making certain class of mistakes) isn't as bad as just making arbitrary unrelated mistakes, this is a criticism of many players is that they don't develop a style.

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Post #53 Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 6:28 am 
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don't worry too much about style
worry about playing the correct move


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Post #54 Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 1:59 am 
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wineandgolover wrote:
SmoothOper wrote:
For me I have on occasion debated, is it my weaknesses too weak or my strengths not strong enough. It makes a difference.

The former. You can get to 1d without any particular strength or tesuji cleverness.

No offense meant. The first step is eliminating/reducing mistakes.


And 1d is still not very strong player so there vast number of ways reaching that level. So reducing mistakes on one or two areas might make it.

I think one thing that causes stops in progress is that we tend to be "one trick horses". One can exceptionally good (compared on players of comparable strength that is) for example in invading. And by exploiting this one can get better his/her particular set of tricks up to a point when further progress on those will not yield gains unless one start improve on other areas.

And I think the plateaus are not on any fixed places but highly dependent on individual

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Post #55 Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:00 am 
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petri wrote:
wineandgolover wrote:
SmoothOper wrote:
For me I have on occasion debated, is it my weaknesses too weak or my strengths not strong enough. It makes a difference.

The former. You can get to 1d without any particular strength or tesuji cleverness.

No offense meant. The first step is eliminating/reducing mistakes.


And 1d is still not very strong player so there vast number of ways reaching that level. So reducing mistakes on one or two areas might make it.

I think one thing that causes stops in progress is that we tend to be "one trick horses". One can exceptionally good (compared on players of comparable strength that is) for example in invading. And by exploiting this one can get better his/her particular set of tricks up to a point when further progress on those will not yield gains unless one start improve on other areas.

And I think the plateaus are not on any fixed places but highly dependent on individual


I agree with this. Do I need to make more "tricks" stronger, or do I need to do something else. Something that I fear may hamper my development is the desire to have techniques that work in any situation, but not taking into account the situation may lead to sub-optimal results. I think there are certain points where subtle placement of the direction of 3-4 could leave an opportunity that playing my favorite fuseki won't take advantage, though there isn't anything to prevent me from playing that way.

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Post #56 Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:18 am 
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petri wrote:
I think one thing that causes stops in progress is that we tend to be "one trick horses". One can exceptionally good (compared on players of comparable strength that is) for example in invading. And by exploiting this one can get better his/her particular set of tricks up to a point when further progress on those will not yield gains unless one start improve on other areas.


This seems possible. (Although I continue to think that in the overwhelming majority of cases the plateau is an illusion.) But it's probably not the decreasing returns in the "one trick" area that is painful so much as the difficulty of learning tricks two, three, and four at a delayed pace. A beginner understanding of counting, or shape, or sente is a very powerful weapon in a game between two beginners. So the beginner who counts, or who knows sente from gote, gets to use his skills, win, feel proud, and go on to use them again. In a game between two average amateurs, the one who has beginner-level skills isn't going to going to get any benefit from them, because the well-rounded player will primarily be using his skills to wrack up points in advanced contexts where the one-trick pony has no idea what's going on. By the time the pony figures out what the score is, or which play is whose sente, his pony has already initiated the risky fight, taken all the double sente, and so on and so forth. So the one-trick pony has very little incentive to use those skills in the game, and it is much harder for him to climb up the beginner - mediocre - intermediate ladder.

At the same time, certain kinds of one-sidedness seem to make perfect sense to me. It seems that with joseki and fuseki in particular, a lot of beginners agonize over learning things by rote which they would have been able to pick up very quickly if they had waited until they could read adequately.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting over your wall.
Post #57 Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:21 am 
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jts wrote:
petri wrote:
I think one thing that causes stops in progress is that we tend to be "one trick horses". One can exceptionally good (compared on players of comparable strength that is) for example in invading. And by exploiting this one can get better his/her particular set of tricks up to a point when further progress on those will not yield gains unless one start improve on other areas.


This seems possible. (Although I continue to think that in the overwhelming majority of cases the plateau is an illusion.) But it's probably not the decreasing returns in the "one trick" area that is painful so much as the difficulty of learning tricks two, three, and four at a delayed pace. A beginner understanding of counting, or shape, or sente is a very powerful weapon in a game between two beginners. So the beginner who counts, or who knows sente from gote, gets to use his skills, win, feel proud, and go on to use them again. In a game between two average amateurs, the one who has beginner-level skills isn't going to going to get any benefit from them, because the well-rounded player will primarily be using his skills to wrack up points in advanced contexts where the one-trick pony has no idea what's going on. By the time the pony figures out what the score is, or which play is whose sente, his pony has already initiated the risky fight, taken all the double sente, and so on and so forth. So the one-trick pony has very little incentive to use those skills in the game, and it is much harder for him to climb up the beginner - mediocre - intermediate ladder.

At the same time, certain kinds of one-sidedness seem to make perfect sense to me. It seems that with joseki and fuseki in particular, a lot of beginners agonize over learning things by rote which they would have been able to pick up very quickly if they had waited until they could read adequately.


For me there is also the problem that by the time I figure out how to punish some of the one trick mistakes like gote capturing and aggressive approach moves, is about the time players stop making them.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting over your wall.
Post #58 Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:58 am 
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SmoothOper wrote:

For me there is also the problem that by the time I figure out how to punish some of the one trick mistakes like gote capturing and aggressive approach moves, is about the time players stop making them.


The fact that you punish those moves now means you've gotten stronger.

If your opponents stop doing gote captures start thinking of sacrifice cross cuts forcing them to capture in gote.
Or alternatively find what other moves they are making that you can treat as gote.

If they stop making aggressive approach moves maybe play a bit looser to entice them to make aggressive approach moves.

If you're good at punishing something get in positions where your opponent will make that mistake.

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Post #59 Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 7:33 am 
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There are 3 factors that I see most often in people that I try to teach.

1) Not enough understanding of good vs bad shapes
2) Wrong direction of play
3) GREED!

It's not easy to spot these errors in your own play. But for someone stronger than yourself they can be painstakingly obvious. I have had to overcome each of these 3 points, and each time I overcame one, my rank jumped by 2 or 3 within 2 days.

1) Study known shapes and their "shape point". Understand why they are good shapes. Understand which shapes can be cut and which shapes make eyes. Once you have learned a bit more about good and bad shapes, you can start applying them in your live studies. Either look for them in games between high dan players or try to find bad shapes in your own previously played games. When you find a bad shape in your own game, try to think of how you could have made a better shape and what the result would have been. Studying life & death problems starting at 30kyu problems and going up very very slowly, reading the entire problem (at 30k 1 or 2 moves and at 10k 4 - 10 moves) will give you a solid understanding of which shapes give life and which result in death.

2) A lot of kyu players tunnelvision a lot when playing. They blindly respond to their opponents moves unless it's obviously gote to them. You can tenuki way more than you think! The amount of times I see people responding to an end game move in the opening is really painful. To overcome this problem, it's a good exercise to think to yourself "what will happen if I ignore this move and play somewhere else?" and "Where could I play that's much bigger than my opponent's followup?". Try to avoid getting enclosed and being forced to live with only 2 or 3 points. Think to yourself "can I run?" before you think "can I live?".

3) Start trying to make points without killing big groups! Look at the big points on the board without leaving any weaknesses in your groups (make good shapes that are hard to attack). Your opponent will have a really hard time finding good moves to play against you and will fall behind on points slowly and by a small margin. He will then try to reduce/invade, and that's where you can start attacking for profit.

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Post #60 Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 9:34 am 
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foeZ wrote:
3) GREED!


I don't think you have the same sense of greed as I do.

foeZ wrote:

3) Start trying to make points without killing big groups! Look at the big points on the board without leaving any weaknesses in your groups (make good shapes that are hard to attack). Your opponent will have a really hard time finding good moves to play against you and will fall behind on points slowly and by a small margin. He will then try to reduce/invade, and that's where you can start attacking for profit.


Taking big points as you described is greedy, attacking groups trying to kill is aggressive, two different concepts really.

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