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 Post subject: 4-4 double keima approach disaster
Post #1 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:19 pm 
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Hello there, I started playing on Tygem again and in the process losing a lot of hair over unexpected moves that keep throwing me off over and over again. How should I play after white's E17? Just connecting seemed common sense to me, but that didn't turn out so great in the end.

Thanks in advance.



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Post #2 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:22 pm 
Honinbo
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Just atari C15 and push through in sente -- basic broken shape for W.
Later, after you make the C18-B18 exchange, you still have the double hane at G17.

The problem is not :b7: connect. You killed yourself with :b11:. :)
Important to distinguish the moves that are problematic from the ones that aren't.


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 Post subject: Re: 4-4 double keima approach disaster
Post #3 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:30 pm 
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So it looks ok like this then? Thanks for your answer.



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Post #4 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:31 pm 
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Yes, much better result for B than in the real game.

Also, the double approach has many variations -- have to look at the whole board. It's a lot of work. :)

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 Post subject: Re: 4-4 double keima approach disaster
Post #5 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:34 pm 
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I tend to screw up a lot with moves like 11 at the most crucial time of an exchange... ^^; Should I focus on tsumego, joseki or something else to get these kind of moves right?

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Post #6 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:38 pm 
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ShinLyuu wrote:
I tend to screw up a lot with moves like 11 at the most crucial time of an exchange... ^^;
Should I focus on tsumego, joseki or something else to get these kind of moves right?
I've noticed that this depends on the individual.
Some people can study and improve nicely all by themselves.
Some find a good teacher to be very helpful. (I belong to the latter group. :) )

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Post #7 Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:54 am 
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ShinLyuu wrote:
How should I play after white's E17? Just connecting seemed common sense to me,
but that didn't turn out so great in the end.
( my emphasis. )
Hi Shin, it turns out the :w6: - :b7: exchange is good for B, so you are happy to do it.
If you compare the variation where W hanes up at G16 on :w6: instead of pushing at E17,
B's shape is less solid than yours in the game -- the :w6: - :b7: exchange helps B get a nice strong wall.
Once again, important to tell the good moves ( :b7: connect ) from the less good ones. :)

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 Post subject: Re: 4-4 double keima approach disaster
Post #8 Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:43 am 
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Ok, next time I'll get it right and not lose so easily (I hope). Thank you for sharing your wisdom, EdLee!

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 Post subject: Re: 4-4 double keima approach disaster
Post #9 Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:10 am 
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ShinLyuu wrote:
So it looks ok like this then? Thanks for your answer.



But something seems to be wrong with this variation. Wg16 (atari) and then Wd15 would lead to complications. I wouldn't play double hane in this position.

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 Post subject: Re: 4-4 double keima approach disaster
Post #10 Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:59 am 
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Oh yeah, I didn't think of that, best to avoid the double hane before the shape D15 cut is fixed then.

Fantastic signature quote by the way. :cool:


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 Post subject: Re: 4-4 double keima approach disaster
Post #11 Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:24 pm 
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I think Vlack can throw in at F18 to get the second line stone. I haven't read any way for White to gain from those lines, and Black's shape is a bit nicer, IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: 4-4 double keima approach disaster
Post #12 Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:35 pm 
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yeah, there's no reason for the double hane in the final position... you already got value for your sacrifice

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