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Offline kaimat
 Post subject: Can this 3-3 invasion be killed?
Post #1 Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:08 pm 
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This invasion was the difference between me beating and losing to a 1d in an even game on Tygem.

I have always thought that the marked black stones secured the corner, and when you add in the extra supporting stones it seems like this should (in theory) be an easy kill for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . X X
$$ - . . W . . # X O O
$$ - . . . # . . O . O
$$ - . . # . . . . . .
$$ - . X X O . . . . .
$$ - . O O O . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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Offline DrStraw
 Post subject: Re: Can this 3-3 invasion be killed?
Post #2 Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:23 pm 
Oza

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It is hard to find a way for W to live. Just a couple of possibilities:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . 3 5 2 6 . . X X
$$ - . 4 O 1 . X X O O
$$ - . 7 . X . . O . O
$$ - . . X . . . . . .
$$ - . X X O . . . . .
$$ - . O O O . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . 3 4 2 . . . X X
$$ - 7 6 O 1 . X X O O
$$ - . 5 . X . . O . O
$$ - . . X . . . . . .
$$ - . X X O . . . . .
$$ - . O O O . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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Offline TheBigH
 Post subject: Re: Can this 3-3 invasion be killed?
Post #3 Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:47 pm 
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After :b1: in Dr Straw's first diagram, I doubt if White can find space to make two eyes. And it's hard to see how white can capture anything, or connect to the outside.

How did White live in the game you played?

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Offline SmoothOper
 Post subject: Re: Can this 3-3 invasion be killed?
Post #4 Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:34 pm 
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Might be able to get a reduction or ko out of it.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . X X
$$ - . . W 1 . # X O O
$$ - 2 . . # . . O . O
$$ - . . # . . . . . .
$$ - . X X O . . . . .
$$ - . O O O . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .[/go]
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Offline TheBigH
 Post subject: Re: Can this 3-3 invasion be killed?
Post #5 Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:30 pm 
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SmoothOper wrote:
Might be able to get a reduction or ko out of it.


Or perhaps a bunch of forcing moves that finish building white's wall and seal black in.

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Offline SmoothOper
 Post subject: Re: Can this 3-3 invasion be killed?
Post #6 Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:52 am 
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SmoothOper wrote:
Might be able to get a reduction or ko out of it.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . X X
$$ - . . W 1 . # X O O
$$ - 2 . . # . . O . O
$$ - . . # . . . . . .
$$ - . X X O . . . . .
$$ - . O O O . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .[/go]

If B defends at...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . 7 . . . . . . .
$$ - 6 5 4 . . . . X X
$$ - . . W 1 . # X O O
$$ - 2 8 . # . . O . O
$$ - 3 . # . . . . . .
$$ - . X X O . . . . .
$$ - . O O O . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .[/go]
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Offline DrStraw
 Post subject: Re: Can this 3-3 invasion be killed?
Post #7 Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:59 am 
Oza

Posts: 2180
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
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GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
SmoothOper wrote:
Might be able to get a reduction or ko out of it.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . X X
$$ - . . W 1 . # X O O
$$ - 2 . . # . . O . O
$$ - . . # . . . . . .
$$ - . X X O . . . . .
$$ - . O O O . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . . 8 . . . . . .
$$ - . 9 . 6 7 . . X X
$$ - . 4 O 1 . X X O O
$$ - 2 3 . X . . O . O
$$ - 5 . X . . . . . .
$$ - . X X O . . . . .
$$ - . O O O . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . X X
$$ - 7 . O 1 . X X O O
$$ - 2 3 . X . . O . O
$$ - 5 6 X . . . . . .
$$ - 4 X X O . . . . .
$$ - . O O O . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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Offline SmoothOper
 Post subject: Re: Can this 3-3 invasion be killed?
Post #8 Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:07 am 
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Rank: IGS 5kyu
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . 7 . . . . . . .
$$ - 4 . . 6 8 . . X X
$$ - 1 2 O X . X X O O
$$ - . X 5 X . . O . O
$$ - 3 . X . . . . . .
$$ - O X X O . . . . .
$$ - . O O O . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .[/go]
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Offline moboy78
 Post subject: Re: Can this 3-3 invasion be killed?
Post #9 Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:30 am 
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What did you play out in your game, kaimat?
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Offline kaimat
 Post subject: Re: Can this 3-3 invasion be killed?
Post #10 Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:12 am 
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Posts: 70
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Online playing schedule: KGS most nights after 8pm CST. Sundays available anytime but on in the morning and evening.
moboy78 wrote:
What did you play out in your game, kaimat?


I was afraid to play the ko :(

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . . 6 5 7 . . . .
$$ - . 4 0 2 3 . . X X
$$ - . . O 1 . X X O O
$$ - . 8 9 X . . O . O
$$ - . . X . . . . . .
$$ - . X X O . . . . .
$$ - . O O O . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . . O X X . . . .
$$ - . O O O X . . X X
$$ - 4 . O X . X X O O
$$ - 1 O X X . . O . O
$$ - 2 5 X . . . . . .
$$ - 3 X X O . . . . .
$$ - . O O O . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .[/go]


:w6: at :b1:

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Offline Mef
 Post subject: Re: Can this 3-3 invasion be killed?
Post #11 Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:45 am 
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DrStraw wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . b 8 . . . . . .
$$ - a 9 . 6 7 . . X X
$$ - . 4 O 1 . X X O O
$$ - 2 3 c X . . O . O
$$ - 5 . X . . . . . .
$$ - . X X O . . . . .
$$ - . O O O . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .[/go]


After 9, A-B-C makes 2 stage ko?
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: Can this 3-3 invasion be killed?
Post #12 Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:30 pm 
Oza
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Mef wrote:
DrStraw wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . b 8 . . . . . .
$$ - a 9 . 6 7 . . X X
$$ - . 4 O 1 . X X O O
$$ - 2 3 c X . . O . O
$$ - 5 . X . . . . . .
$$ - . X X O . . . . .
$$ - . O O O . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .[/go]


After 9, A-B-C makes 2 stage ko?

Does moving 5 to B15 just kill? The play at 'c' loses its meaning.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . b 8 . . . . . .
$$ - a 9 . 6 7 . . X X
$$ - . 4 O 1 . X X O O
$$ - 2 3 c X . . O . O
$$ - . 5 X . . . . . .
$$ - . X X O . . . . .
$$ - . O O O . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Offline gogameguru
 Post subject: Re: Can this 3-3 invasion be killed?
Post #13 Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:30 pm 
Lives in gote
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Another thing to consider, after reading out DrStraw's sequences above, is :w2::

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . b a 3 . . . X X
$$ - . . W 1 . # X O O
$$ - . 2 . # . . O . O
$$ - . . # . . . . . .
$$ - . X X O . . . . .
$$ - . O O O . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .[/go]


If White tries :w2:, :b3: is a simple and good move which kills White in this case. It should be your first instinct. Instead of :b3:, Black b is also possible, but when the simple move works, it's usually better in Go.

Black has to be careful not to play :b3: at 'a' instead. Otherwise, White will eke out a ko as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b3: is bad. White can make ko.
$$ -------------------------------
$$ - . a . . . . . . .
$$ - . 6 3 7 . . . X X
$$ - 0 . W 1 . # X O O
$$ - . 2 4 # . . O . O
$$ - 8 b # 5 . . . . .
$$ - 9 X X O . . . . .
$$ - . O O O . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . . . . .[/go]


After this, a and b are miai and the ko is annoying for Black. I often see players make this kind of mistake, so I thought it was worth mentioning.

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