In my games, it seems whenever my opponent gets a moyo it's already territory, and no matter what I try it doesn't work and I just have to concede all that territory. But when I try to make a moyo, my opponents invade willy-nilly and get a good result out of it. I've looked and looked and loked and still can't figure out what makes some moyos better than others.

In the first game, I had White. Black winds up with the entire left side of the board, and is able to weaken my moyo on the right side, while winding up with most of the bottom.



In the second game, I had Black. Once again, my opponent gets a strong position on the left side, while my moyo on the bottom gets decimated by a move I would never have considered.

Oh dear oh dear Fedya, it's the return of Morrisey! So let's take a look at your claims

So is this a property of their moyo actually being territory, or because what you tried was wrong and something better would work? When you allow your opponent to build a moyo you should already be thinking about how you will deal with it. One way would be thinking about possible future invasion points, a common example being the 3-3 under a 4-4 stone. Another is reductions. Another is building a moyo of your own. What weaknesses are there within it, are them some sente moves you have to help your operations? Does, or will there be in the future, a weak group of yours or your opponent nearby. If you have a weak group near your opponents moyo then they can likely use sente moves in attacking it to help patch up their moyo and turn it into solid territory. On the flip side if they have a weak group near their moyo (or even not so near but you can chase it nearer) then you can use the sente moves in attacking it to help destroy their moyo.


So again is this a property of their moyo, or their superior invading / your inferior attacking skills later? You need to consider those points above, but applied in reverse to your own moyo.


So let's look at the first game in detail, but to spoil the ending it's not actually so much that one moyo is better than the other (and I wouldn't really call those moyos anyway), it's that one player plays better than the other afterwards. The original strengths/weaknesses of the respective moyos are actually of fairly minor relevance to the poor results you got (you were correct in your judgement that your result was bad, so at least that is something! Sometimes your pessimism makes you say a result is bad for you when it actually isn't).



- The opening is reasonable enough for both up to move 19 (though your move 14 to the 4th line is a bit unusual, black could play j17 to undermine you and cause more trouble), but your move 20 block is too slow. It is more than simply an endgame move as it does protect some eyespace for your group, but it's too kind to black to let him strengthen the corner like that in sente. You should tenuki: c6 is a simple and good move that develops your corner and reduces black's potential on the left side. Much later on black made a big left side, if you played c6 that couldn't have happened. In case you are worried about black f18 if you tenuki, you can push at e18 and then g18 clamp and your group is in reasonable health.
- Move 22: f3 is fine, maybe even better than a pincer. Black can't get the entire left side of the board with 1 or even 2 more moves. And it's not a problem if he does, provided you get something of similar value with your moves.
- Move 26 "I probably should have played J3 here, but I didn't see what was coming." Maybe, or k3, The idea of k3 is to aim at o3, but it also has a weakness at h3 so is more complicated. I worry a bit that j3 is slow. Tenuki is ok too though, certainly not a problem at this level.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm29 Position at move 29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . O . . , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . 1 . . . X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So let's analyse the position at move 29:
- Black has a solid corner top left.
- White has a solid group top middle.
- Black has a loose corner top right, maybe right has some aji inside with moves like r17/p17, but it's not weak.
- White's r14 r11 group is ok
- White's q6 r4 etc group is strong.
- I would not really call the r9 area between them much of a moyo (nor territory). It might become your territory, it might not, but to me (maybe I'm wrong) a moyo conjures up an idea of a larger, looser framework. Something important to note is that if black invades at r9, this is something of a pincer on the r11/r14 group as black has the s16 stone, so if black does get out safely then there are some chances of a later counterattack on your group. This is not to go overpessimistic "Boo hoo! my moyo sucks", but there is some weakness here that needs to be accounted for.
- Black's bottom right group is safe, the extension to j3 has a gap at k3
- White's bottom left corner is so-so, j3 threatens the b3 d2 peep combo, which you really ought to know around 6 kyu. There are actually chances to resist the d2 peep, depending on a ladder (which black has here). If white tenukis it won't die, but you would lose the corner base and have to run out to make eyes. This would probably mean you wouldn't get the chance to invade at k3.
- Black's botton left group is safe.
- The c12 area between black's two left side groups is similar to the white r9 area, though again I don't really think of it as a moyo. There is a difference between them though in that black's area is between 2 strong groups, whereas white's one is between a strong and an ok group, the key difference between them being who has s16/b4. So a black invasion at r9 has some latent attacking power, whereas a white invasion around c12 doesn't threaten anything.
- So in conclusion, black's c12 area (moyo if you wish) is slightly better than white's r9 one because it is between 2 strong groups and an invasion there has no threat.

So what does all this tell us? Your c12 was a mistake as it has no threat: it simply turns an area which could have been black territory into dame. You shouldn't be sad if black does turn that area into territory, it's not so big. Probably a better way to deal with the left would be the d10 shoulder hit: this does actually have a threat if ignored so play might continue as below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm29 Reduction rather than invasion
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . O . . , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . 6 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . X , O . . |
$$ | . b O . . O . 1 . . . X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Like this your group is safely out to the centre, and the turn at a remains as a large move both territorially and to separate black on the left (both sides are safe for now, but you could get some future profit from a split like this). If black did play a or jump/slide you don't mind, his side isn't so big. So the first key lesson here is an invasion that simply plops down into an area of prospective territory with no threat (between 2 strong groups) isn't so interesting. But maybe the best move was to defend your corner at b above, which is a big move both territorially and for eyespace. It also slightly weakens black's left side group, so then an invasion at c11 could have some oomph and threat to black.

So continuing the game, c12 is not so awful, but seems to suggest a misappraisal of the situation as it's a "meh" move.
- Move 32 b3 is a big mistake because of the d2 tesuji. I hope the pain from this game makes you remember this shape! Better is to come out. f8 is a fancy way to do this. Below shows another plan. The idea here is b3 already made black's group strong, so you don't mind contacting it to make you stronger too. You only spent 3 seconds on this move. You need to think.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm32 Coming out
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . O . . , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 2 a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X 1 7 d . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . X , O . . |
$$ | . X O . . O . X . . . X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black might play 40 as a-c instead which leaves a cutting point at d which doesn't quite work yet and weakens your c12 stone, so probably you would jump out to e12 next. Also note that once your group here gets stronger (say you defended to the right of d), you might be able to invade at k3 aiming to gobble up j3.
- Move 40, yes. This is slow and e6 better, maybe d6.
- Move 42. This one is awful and slow (black's atari was too): it saves a useless heavy stone, doesn't make eyes, doesn't make a weakness for black (g2 cut is nothing). Better to run out to e7. Black's next move at h6 is obviously far more valuable than this f4. You took only 3 seconds to make this move. You need to think.
- From then on black plays nicely, attacking your weak group to gobble up c12. Maybe there was some chance to resist and fight and save the stone (particularly because your 7k opponent will make mistakes), but it is difficult and the key problems have already happened.

So in conclusion black's left moyo was between 2 strong groups so invading it was gote and uninteresting. The key problem was you allowed your lower left group to become weak (you could have defended it at b3 instead of the invasion, or come out when black played b3) and then played some heavy moves (f4 was particularly bad), and by driving it out and attacking it black captured c12. Two of your worst moves you played in only 3 seconds. Did you even read 1 move ahead for your opponent at these times? You need to slow down and think what mean things your opponent might do to you and plan how to deal with them, instead of just instinctively playing a move and hoping for the best (or worst?).

- Moves 54-58 are again slow and heavy. Things are already going pretty badly here, but if you tenuki can black kill you? Probably not. So how about tenuki to give you a chance? o6 is a good mutual moyo point, growing yours on the right and maybe in the future you can reduce black's lower side (invasion would be hard now, it got stronger with moves like h5 in sente attacking your bottom left weak group).

Now onto the right side.

- Move 60. This is the start of your problems in your moyo: it forms a bad shape with r11, and black immediately punishes it (impressive play from a 7 kyu). q8 would be a better shape but is rather slow.
- Move 62. This makes the 'elephant eye' shape, forcing black to split you. Yes q11 is probably better.
- Move 64. This one is even worse than 62, as black not only splits you but takes liberties off p8 with his q7, and then you want to play both p7 and r8 to connect. This is the classic squeezing the toothpaste. You spent 4 seconds on this move. Did you consider any other move in this brief time? The knight's move below is a standard technique to get ahead, and allows you to play on both sides. Black can still split you with a-c, but at least he is cut, your p8 stone is connected and he damaged his o6 stone so you can make a fight of this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Don't hurt yourself
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . O . . , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . X . . . . . . O 2 . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . 3 a . c . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . X b O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . X . O O O . . . , . . . . X , O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O X X . . . X . . . X X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

- Move 66. Play p7 to save your stone. Black can then turn at r8 to split your side, but you can come out at p12. That's better than losing p8. Again the knight's move, this time to s7, is better.
- Move 68. Did you consider at r6 instead? Then black p6 is not (fake-)sente (as in threatening an atari).
- Move 70. You don't need to play here. This is a small endgame move. If black plays q5 you connect, if black plays r6 you play q5 and say thanks for the dead stone. You spent 6 seconds on this move.

So the summary of the right side is you made a bad shape with 60, black exploited it well, and then you played some toothpaste squeezing pushing from behind that killed your own p8 stone. Those previous slight disadvantages of your moyo I mentioned previously weren't relevant to the bad result you got here, it was poor shape/tactical play. You need to play more slowly and think, not instantly but meekly follow your opponent.

In the second game, I think a big mistake is move 31. Already at 25, you complain your group would be week, although white seems a lot weeker to me. Then at 31, you should definitely answer. It keeps white not alive/week, while protecting your top points. As it went in the game, white pushed himself to life in sente, which is of course great for him(even after that, there is still p16 which seem rather annoying for him, because it seems he cant really connect o16 without getting reduced to one eye, while not having anywhere to run, so maybe its still not great for him after all). C10 doesnt seem urgent, white cant secure all that with just one move, so you can stil jump in later(apart from the fact, that he can't really play there anyway because your block is sente against his week to group), but the way you played you end up with a very cramped one space extension that can easily be bullied.

Some comments to Uberdude on the first game:



I wasn't worried about F18; I was worried about a monkey jump leaving me without any eyespace on the side and having to run out to the center to try to find two eyes.



It looked big to me. And as I said, I didn't realize that the group in the bottom left had a weakness.



And yet I don't think I'd ever seen it before. (I do problems, but the positions in the problems never seem to look like the positions I get in my games.)



One of my (many) weaknesses is that when things start to go this bad again (since a lot of the things that go wrong seem to be the same themes: other people's moyos in this case; thickness not working for me being another) I get frustrated and flustered and start playing too quickly before I remember to get up, take a few deep breaths, and look at the board again. By that time, however, the damage has usually been done. was in particular a bad move, but I didn't think I could let Black get F4. I figured it wasn't as bad as playing F4 directly, since it at least tries to run out.

The other frustrating thing is that my opponents almost all play faster than I do.

And a reply to Schachus:



I ended up with a weak group on the left despite White not having too many stones there, and the lesson is that I won't end up with a weak group if I wait until White is even stronger to do anything about the group? That doesn't make sense to me.

Ah, well the monkey jump is usually not a good way to take away eyes (unless it simply reduces the eyespace to a dead shape) as it's rather thin without much follow up other than 1st line crawling, so you could just ignore it.


Can I suggest you do the GoGameGuru problems, particularly the intermediate level ones. They are around your level, maybe a little taxing but should be doable with some time for reading. They are often based on realistic shapes from games, for example one based on this peep shape is https://gogameguru.com/weekly-go-problems-week-28/. See also https://gogameguru.com/weekly-go-problems-week-29/.


For this I suggest letting go of the mouse between moves. Sit on your hands, hold a drink, fiddle with your hair or something, anything to force a break between clicks. A lot of those quick bad moves were instinctive answers to moves you though were sente (and often are): push->block, atari->connect, extend->crawl; by not being able to click so fast you will have a chance to think "hey, was that really sente, can I answer in another way?".
As for opponents playing faster, that's the same with me, and there's a player in my club who blitzes through 60 minute tournament games. It's easy to get swept up with him, but you need to pace yourself and play to the clock, not the opponent. Don't feel you are wasting your opponent's time, the clock is there and they agreed to it.

So I've been trying to follow the advice all of you have been giving me. Unfortunately, I must not be implementing it properly because things still keep going badly wrong, and seemingly in the same way. My opponents keep getting big moyos, and they have no difficulty invading mine.

At you could consider just making a corner enclosure and then if black attacks the O17 stone, you can always switch to 3-3.

really wants to be a pincer, IMO.

is fine. It's a big point, plus it threatens to invade. Black's response leaves some aji still.

is also good. I wouldn't play automatically, though, without serious consideration as to what you want. Black is saying here that he wants the outside, so you can give it to him, but should consider how you will deal with it. It's also worth considering if you can break out in some manner.

looks kind of odd to me, to be honest. The result is not that great.

At :50:, I'd plop down D8 almost immediately. No more connection issues. For at least atari from the other side.

is practically a pass. Black can't do anything with these stones, and rightly abandoned them. Why do you need to take them now?

terrible. These stones are dead, don't waste more. White was maybe a bit behind previously, but the action of running with this group lost the game.

For the rest, invading on the right seems playable, but I'd go on the third line to live locally. Don't forget you can invade the upper right 3-3 too. If you're worried about the center, just jump in there with something like K13, where you have a lot of options, though the top side gap is a bit glaring there.

At also, you don't need to read to see that white has a big group without clear eyeshape, surrounded by black stones.

For the question of how your opponent invaded later, the struggle to live in the center gave black a huge wall facing white's weakness. What did you expect black to do with the wall, especially after black had played preparatory moves like F14? The more strength you have near the invasion point, the easier it is.

A few comments.



Black outplayed you in the opening, both technically and psychologically. He took the lead, and played a game that he likes and you do not. And you did not play so badly. In fact, you played like a 6 kyu. But he is also 6 kyu. If his opening is this good, there must be parts of his game that are not so good. He can build great moyos, but is still at your level. That suggests that he cannot handle invasions very well. So invade. Not just a little extension on the bottom, but the five space extension on the right side. You may not feel confident if you invade there, but he will not feel confident of attacking an invasion, either. Otherwise he would be giving you stones.

Your opponent telegraphed the fact that he likes to build big moyos early on. The R-05 stone is a hint that he wants to build a moyo on the right side. Then he makes a high approach to the bottom left corner. Then he makes a horse's head in the top right corner. Whoa, Nellie! That really tells you what he is up to.

Even with komi, as White your job is to make life difficult for Black. Don't let him dictate play, as he did in this game. You can tell that he is going for a big moyo. Don't make it easy for him. You may not like it if he invades your extension in the top right, but as White it is up to you to make plays the he does not like. Make a high approach to the bottom right corner, or make a splitting play on the right side. Don't let him play his game, especially when it is a game that makes you uncomfortable.

Edit: Having looked at a bit more of the game, let me say that you must connect with . Can Black kill your large dragon? Maybe so, but you cannot afford to give up the right side. Might as well go for the early lunch.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Comments on the two reviews:

I didn't play a pincer in part because I have trouble with pincers in general, but in particular with pincers to high approaches and especially the high approach to a 4-3 stone. I look up the josekis, but they don't make sense to me in the way that the josekis regarding the low approach to a 4-4 stone do.

You may tell me that I need to learn by doing but then when I complain about thickness not working or my opponents getting big moyos, you say to play in such a way that this doesn't happen.

I was under the impression that playing at B18 worked better with the Chinese fuseki, ie if there were already a stone at C11.

I didn't see any other weakness to attack.

I felt I had to try to keep the two Black groups split, otherwise he'd be getting a huge amount of territory in the center.

Sure, I can see by then that I've got a glaring weak group in the center, but I couldn't see that was going to happen when I played . In general, I only tend to see things like this after it's too late to do anything about it.