I'll just drop this here. Analyzed (by Deep Zen) most recent game between Iyama and Ke. More info at viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13751&p=225118#p225118

But now we know how large the grain of salt has to be.

_________________
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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
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Visualize whirled peas.

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Here are some more games of Zenith 7, this time against Zenith 6.
It seems that the 7d level is a little bit slower in Zenith 7, but also stronger (at least against Zenith 6 with level 7d).
On my machine Zenith 7 mostly used 3 or 4 seconds per move, in rare cases up to 6 seconds.









Zenith 7 in 9d mode against Zenith 6 in 7d mode—easy game for Zenith 7.
7d is the highest selectable level in Zenith 6.
Zenith 7 used between some seconds up to 20 seconds per move.

Interesting games, thanks for sharing. In the last game Zen 7 took the lead after 86 moves, just wow.

I just bought the English version of Zen 7 today, and have not seen any of these new features. Interestingly, the description for the English version does not mention any of these features. It only states:



Could it be that the review function is only available in the Japanese version? This would be hugely disappointing as I had purchased Zen 7 for the review function.

Just use Leela(it's much better) and also help us to improve Leela Zero

You can open an existing game and click the Analyze button. Then you can see Zen's five best candidate moves in the analysis window. I think thats what they called review function.

Leela is great and it's free, but Zen 7 is much stronger. Leela sometimes doesn't understand life and death situations.

Oh, they are the same thing? I had the impression from the following quote from Gomoto on the first page of this thread that review mode was different (or at least an improved version of) analyse function:

Then you hardware configuration is wrong.
Leela is much stronger, that's also the reason why nearly no one is buying Zen 7.
https://sjeng.org/leela.html

This is a position from a game between Leela 0.10.0 (black) and Zen 6. The black dragon on the right side is dead. Zen 6, Zen 7 and Crazy Stone see this almost immediately.

After more than 800,000 playouts, Leela 0.11.0 believes blacks winning chances are at 52%. This has nothing to do with a wrong hardware configuration.

goame, the reason why YOU dont buy Zen 7 is, you do not want to spend the money. And you dont have to.

I for one am quite happy to spend a small amount of money on several nice go engines.

I also spent some money on human go teachers and loved to do so (and will continue to do so from time to time). Go engines are much cheaper than a real teacher.

Go is my main pastime and I would be stupid if I would not invest some of my resources for my passion.

But it is very nice you dont have to if you dont like to. I appreciate Leela and the other free go engines as well.

Just some unorganized notes for anyone who might be interested in buying Zen 7 and looking for info:

By my understanding and impressions of both, Zen 7 is significantly stronger than Leela 0.11 when using equal hardware, but Zen 7 commercial release doesn't support GPU, unlike Leela. So if you have a laptop like mine without any good graphics card anyways, Zen 7 is definitely stronger, but if you have a decent graphics card, Leela might well be as strong or stronger because Zen will be unable to use that hardware.

On CPU, stylewise Zen 7 so far seems on average a little more stable and self-consistent in its evaluations and very steady. Leela is more dynamic and prone to change its mind as you play down a variation, and continues to have occasional blind spots or misevaluations just like the older 0.10 Leela, although they are somewhat less frequent. I don't have any experience with GPU-accelerated Leela, but I would expect with the large speedup of a strong GPU it would continue to have rare large misevals in situations where the search isn't sufficient to correct it, but I could easily see the deeper search making it much sharper and competitive with Zen 7 in fights that it doesn't miseval.

Zen 7 doesn't appear to have a nice "offline" review interface right now, or at least I haven't found it, but I've found it okay for interactive review of games. The interface is a bit lacking through. By contrast, with Leela 0.11 GTP version there are scripts you can find online that will let you do things like have Leela deep-search your game SGF overnight and annotate it with what it thinks your mistakes were, as well as plug them into GUIs that let you navigate and make reviewing easy.

However, with Leela I always have to take its evals with a grain of salt when they get in certain kinds of capturing races or life and death due to its blind spots. From experience I have a sense now of when it's more likely to do this and in those cases will often interactively go to the position and "test" Leela by playing the moves to resolve a situation or that I think might expose a blind spot, before I can trust the eval. I've used Zen less, but I haven't noticed such major problems with Zen.

Also, one last detail - Leela has an interesting behavior when reviewing handicap games. For example, in no-komi games it thinks *white* has the advantage early on, and in low-handicap games it thinks Black has none or only a small advantage. This is presumably because it was trained on human games where in practice, no-komi games often are won by white since they are underhandicapped, etc. But this makes it hard to use Leela to "objectively" evaluate the position sometimes.

And yet I don't think you can always rely on it to give you a reasonable value of things like "how likely is black to win given that he is 2 stones weaker than white" either. Because from what I can tell from what gcp has said, Leela doesn't actually know that for example black is 2 stones weaker than white. It simply infers this from seeing the board position with black having the extra hoshi stone. But as the board fills up and captures happen, it's no longer clear from the board position alone that it was originally a handicap game, so I think Leela in some unknown and hard-to-predict way will gradually transition to no longer evaluating as if the players are different in strength.

Zen seems to report values closer to objective, at least in 2 and 3 stone games unlike Leela it reports a strong advantage for Black at the start. I haven't tried using Zen on a no-komi game yet.

I haven't see any Leela configuration surpass Zen-15.3-10c in http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/bayes.html yet. So even without GPU advantage I believe Zenith Go 7 is still stronger than Leela 0.11. Of course you can prove me wrong by running your strongest Leela in CGOS at least 100 games.

My laptop doesn't have 10 cores either...

Anyways, going by the rough numbers in CGOS for overall strength Zen on CPU and Leela on strong GPU are close enough that any remaining difference is no big deal compared to all the other things I mentioned.

Zen 7 is really strong, even though it only uses cpu. Here are two games against Leela 0.11.0 and AQ 2.0.3. Hardware: i5-2500K, GTX 1060

I let play Zenith Go 7 against Leela 0.11.0 GPU with 120sec per move. 4 games, 3 won by Zen.

The assumption was that the longer thinking makes the advantage of the GPU more obvious, but even than Zen played very well (except for one game where it played odd moves). Leela has blind spots and a weakness in evaluating positions. Zenith 7 plays more consistent and has a very nice style which is more related to Japanese go theory. I think its NN is trained and supervised carefully and has a much higher quality than Leela's NN.

My hardware specification again:
i7-7700@4.2GHz
MSI GeForce GTX 1080 Gaming X 8G (but not overclocked)

Leela has used more thinking time, Zen often didn't used the 120 seconds. But I only have the average thinking time of Zen.


Zen's average thinking time: 63.4 sec/move


Zen's average thinking time: 64 sec/move


Zen's average thinking time: 62.3 sec/move


Zen's average thinking time: 67 sec/move

Thanks for this very useful post. Wish I had read it before I bought zen7.

I think what you call "a nice "offline" review interface" was what I had in mind when Zen7 was advertised as having a "review mode". Its a bit disappointing that there is no such option available, when freely available software (eg Leela + GRP) can do so. It is really time consuming to review a game using the analyze function alone. At the very least Zen 7 should be able to highlight the moves that most require scrutiny: there is a similar function when reviewing games played against zen7, where it highlights moves that require review in red.

As things stand, i am not sure whether to review my games with Zen or Leela+GRP (i dont have GPU). Perhaps the choice will in time be an obvious one, once Leelazero powers up

I prefer Zen to Leela for this feature:

With Zen I can add and explore multiple variations and annotate them on the fly.