Radar charts proving useful?

John Fairbairn · #1

Reading a commentary by Takao Shinji, I was struck first by an expression he used. That in turn made me think about the move more than usual, at which my surprise increased. My flabber was gasted even more when I related it to some of the things we have been talking about here recently. One of those things was Dieter's "slow connections".

First, the background. The game was between young Mito Shuhei 1-dan, who was playing Black against big beast Hikosaka Naoto 9-dan. This was in the new series in Go World in which young players in the national squad present a radar chart of their various attributes, and a squad coach (Takao here, but it varies month by month) reviews that chart by reference to a game.

Mito thought his strongest suit was positional judgement and his worst was the endgame. He thought his opening and whole-board vision were average. He may wish to revise that after seeing Takao's comments. Takao was not concerned with criticising individual moves as with addressing problems with mindset. In particular, he decided the main theme was Mito's predilection to make prophylactic moves (mamori) too early.

The first example was Black 1 below (39 in the game).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . O X a . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . O O X X . . | $$ | . 1 . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Takao remarked that it's not good to play down towards the edge so early in the game. That's what surprised me initially. Talking about playing on or near the edge would not have surprised me. It was the down that caught my attention.

But once he had my attention, I thought "hang on a mo". It's long been standard teaching that you should think about getting a base early, and it's something amateurs neglect horribly. But, if anything, AI is now telling us that even pros should be trying to settle their groups even earlier than they do.

On top of that, this move is concerned with the base of two opposing groups. If I saw this position in a book of next-move problems, I would choose Black 1 without further thought.

Hmmm. So I did a bit of further thought, and this confirmed I was "right". I wouldn't want to play 'a' because that just helps White settle his territory at the top. I would want to hold off on 'b' (tasty though it looks) for similar reasons.

Still puzzled I decided to visit Lizzie. Blow me, she said the best move was a toss-up between 'a' and 'b', but with 'b' being favoured, and Black 1 did indeed lose a couple of percentage points. Takao's preference, incidentally, was for 'a'. His terminology was interesting there, too. His recommended sequence was as below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , O . O 2 4 , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . O X 1 3 . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . 5 . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The way he described this was "teatsuku kamaeru". For thickness aficionados, note the teatsui rather than atsui, and kamaeru refers to making construction moves, or making frameworks if you will, but on a smaller, tighter scale than moyos. Hata o motsu is an example, and that could be applied here. See my Go Wisdom if you need more detail such as what the te- adds, but the main point to take away from here is that Takao said this is the way to attack. Or more precisely, he said this was the way to aim at an attack. Up instead of down? But it was at this point that I remembered Dieter's slow connections idea, and wondered if there's a similar distinction slow attacks and fast attacks (but in reverse: slow attacks are better?). Over to the reader on that.

Takao's next example was Black 1 below (Black 49 in the game). But note that the so-called endgame move in the top right had been played already by now. This is properly yose in Japanese, because it concerns boundary plays. The idea is not 'approach' as someone said elsewhere (and a reason I don't like 'approach ko' for yose-ko). The -s- is the important letter, denoting a causative or permissive sense. Simply 'approach' would be yoru, where -r- is the important letter. We see the same distinction in amari (e.g. amarigatachi) and amashi. So the true idea is causing (or allowing) an approach. But I find the best analogy in go is that of pulling the draw strings of a bag or purse to make the opening smaller. You can pull it part way while you are still shopping, to minimise the chance of the territory you just bought falling out, and when you've finished shopping - the endgame - you can pull it tight. I mention this not to make the point for boundary lays over endgame yet again (though I'm far from averse to doing that), but because I'd like to ask whether other people have my impression that bots like to make these early boundary plays even earlier than human pros, in the same way that bots seems to like to settle groups earlier. A possible example is the diagram above is the bot choosing 'b' whereas Takao went for 'a'.

(Incidentally, the word used for endgame in the radar charts is not yose but shuuban.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , O . O O . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . O X X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . O O X X . . | $$ | . X . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . 1 . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Again the focus should rather be on "slow attack" (my words), and the way the game should pan out here according to Takao is as below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , O . O O . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . O X X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . O O X X . . | $$ | . X . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . 5 O . . O . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . O . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 4 . . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

He said this was more "positive". Even I can see that, at least, Black has nothing exposed to attack but White does, and Black has 2.5 corners to White's 1.5.

pajaro · #2

For those who may be wondering, the radar charts John is talking about are here:

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=271863#p271863

Mito Shuhei was not in that post, so I don't know what the player thinks about himself. Also, it is not clear to me if he is really strong in positional judgement or weak (or not so strong) in yose/endgame.

But I find that these radar charts are useful. Not because they are very good tools. In some sense, they are very simple. But they are a way to make the players evaluate themselves and see if that evaluation is right or not. In a review of a game, you usually focus only on what happened in that game. So it is good to have an idea of your strengths and weak points without an actual game in mind.

I'd like to know what Takao or other coaches think of other young players.

CDavis7M · #3

pajaro wrote:

Mito Shuhei was not in that post, so I don't know what the player thinks about himself. Also, it is not clear to me if he is really strong in positional judgement or weak (or not so strong) in yose/endgame.

Mito Shuuhei is in part 3 of the ongoing articles about the Japan National Go Team which are in the Monthly Go World pamphlet (accompanying the main magazine). I haven't read it and probably won't get to it but his chart is:

Opening - 5
Middle Game - 4
End Game - 3
Reading - 5
"Big Picture" view - 6
Positional Judgment - 7
Comeback Potential - 4
Calmness/Composure - 4

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Part 3 also has Tsuji Hana with a game against Nakamura Sumire. I can't remember why I've heard of Tsuji before.
And Cho Kosumi, Cho U's older daughter.

lightvector · #4

Some brief bot analysis of second recommendation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , O . O O . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . O X X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . O O X X . . | $$ | . X . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . 5 O . . O . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . O . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 4 . . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kata pretty much agrees that Takao's plan is a good plan for black, including even the exact choice of move 7.

Except that Black has an even more preferred way to play (+12% wr, +1.2 points) if White responds as shown:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , O . O O . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . O X X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . O O X X . . | $$ | . X . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . 3 X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My amateur attempt to interpret of some of the following sequences. In all of them, Black keeps the corner and settles their upper left group, while White's left side remains leaky.

White is too crude. Black's marked stone ends up perfect, white's base on the left is soured by :b6:

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White is too crude. Black's marked stone ends up perfect, white's base on the left is soured by . $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . 8 . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , O . O O . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . O X X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . O O X X . . | $$ | . X . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . 6 O . . O . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not as terrible for white, but Black is still good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Not as terrible for white, but Black is still good. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . 4 . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , O . O O . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . O X X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . O O X X . . | $$ | . X . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . 2 O . . O . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black is also happy to trade. White cannot a or tenuki, because black b - white c - black d for another attack.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Black is also happy to trade. White cannot a or tenuki, because black b - white c - black d for another attack. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . 5 , O . O O . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . a X 3 O X X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . 4 X X O . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . O O X X . . | $$ | . X . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . 2 O . . O . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . O . d . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If white bumps to take black's liberty, then White can block at 3, but Black plays calmly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W If white bumps to take black's liberty, then White can block at 3, but Black plays calmly. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . 4 . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , O . O O . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . O X X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . O O X X . . | $$ | . X . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . 2 O . . O . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . 3 . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Later, black has aji to use. One example of how black might use it. Threatens a and b at the same time.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Later, black has aji to use. One example of how black might use it. Threatens a and b at the same time. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , O . O O . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . O X X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . O O X X . . | $$ | . X . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . X O . . O . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . O a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . 1 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Nice squeeze. Many other sequences are possible. Black will choose later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Nice squeeze. Many other sequences are possible. Black will choose later. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , O . O O . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . O X X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . O O X X . . | $$ | . X . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . X O . . O . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . O a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . 1 X 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Radar charts proving useful?

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