White 8 is bad

topazg · #1

Inspired by the excellent GoGod article article regarding Go Seigen's statement "White 8 is bad", I was touched by the anecdote by his Doctor, Dr Masaki Fujokyu:

Dr Masaki Fujokyu wrote:

Whenever I went to his room on my weekly rounds, a go board was out and seven or eight stones were on it. They were never in the corners but in the centre. Although I had only a glimpse I thought, aha he's begun to study something. Even now I remember that for around three weeks the number of stones never increased.

So, I was thinking, how about someone volunteers to post 8 moves of a fuseki idea, and we talk about them, offer alternatives for each move and why, and discuss why we like or dislike each other's ideas?

logan · #2

[sgf-full](;
GM[1]FF[4]VW[]AP
SZ[19]
HA[0]
ST[0]
DT[2011-01-14]
KM[6.5]
RU[Japanese];B[qd];W[dd];B[pq];W[oc];B[md];W[qk];B[qo];W[qh])[/sgf-full]

RobertJasiek · #3

topazg wrote:

Inspired by the excellent GoGod article

Why should the article and the related book chapter be excellent? If so, it should explain the reasons for White 8 indeed being bad! (I have explained reasons elsewhere, was it on GD?)

topazg · #4

RobertJasiek wrote:

topazg wrote:

Inspired by the excellent GoGod article

Why should the article and the related book chapter be excellent? If so, it should explain the reasons for White 8 indeed being bad! (I have explained reasons elsewhere, was it on GD?)

Please can we not change the subject of the thread. You are welcome to make commentary on Logan's fuseki suggestion, but if you want to comment specifically on that article, please make a new thread

Logan, I'm going to have a shot at your post when I have a bit of spare time. It's quite an opening that one, less orthodox than even I was thinking!

topazg · #5

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Logans Run $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . 5 . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Please excuse the caption

Ok, so

,

and

are not particularly worth commenting on other than to say I always like :w2:

because it sets up an approach in the top right corner quite nicely, when Black plays a 3-4 at R16.

So,

I tend to approach here in this position too, rather than take the empty corner, simply because I like disruptive fusekis, and taking away the shimari whilst developing in the direction my D16 stone wants to develop I consider to be fun, interesting, and reasonable. It is common for professionals to approach 3-4, 3-5, and 4-5 stones with an empty corner remaining.

Interestingly, one of the problems I find with approaching high, is gote (in tag):

This now allows Black to take the empty corner. Sure, White's top side development is nice, but giving Black this much overall speed and spread in the opening is difficult for White I think. As a result, I try to adopt the following:

This way, trading those two stones for fast development, makes me feel Black has ended up slightly overconcentrated. Actually, I think :b9:

is a bit slow, as White can treat the cut as gote and still return to it later at "a" for what feels like an acceptable result. I haven't tried the low approach, maybe I should?

Next move,

I suppose, based on my last reasoning, this move actually makes a lot of sense to me. Now if White jumps out not only does he want sente, but he risks giving Black profit as well. My instant response would be a temptation to double approach, so as to treat the original stone lightly. However, I'm not sure that works with the pincer, and White's only reasonable move locally may be to jump out. As a result, I suppose I like White's plan in the game more than anything I would have come up with, leaving a huge amount of aji in the top right corner whilst preventing Black from developing the right side.

Should Black have adopted a different pincer? Is this an even result? Should Black have simply extended along the right, making miai of a severe pincer in the top right, and taking the empty corner?

Next move,

As with my analysis on move 5, this successfully wedges the Black position on the right, guaranteeing easy life because of the ability to make a two space jump on either side, and allowing White increased options should he be allowed to jump out in the top right corner. I really like the precise placement, it feels just right to me.

EDIT: Actually, the other thing I feel about this move is it also feels patient. If I was to tenuki here I'd want to approach or do something I felt my opponent couldn't ignore at all. This feels like the play of someone who is confident in the precise value of what he's doing.

Next move,

Somewhat surprised by this one. Surely this just encourages White to increase the potential problems in the top right? Ok, Black gets some development in the corner which is never to be underestimated, but it feels like this exchange forces Black to take gote anyway as the top right becomes urgent. I'd take the empty corner myself. However, this also smells like professionals who know how and when to resolve local situations before they become a burden. I suspect Black feels that the top right is already urgent, so it is quite ok to settle the lower right in this fashion and restrict White's options on the right, as Black's next move in the top right corner is forced anyway, and not greatly affected by White's two space extension. I'm speculating, this is above my pay grade.

Next move,

Feels like the only move. Not doing this is an admission that :w6:

was an overplay I think.

My expected continuation

At the final position, black doesn't want to take the empty corner because of the risk that White will jump out in the top right, sealing in Black to the corner or launching an attack. My gut feeling is that Black would continue with a contact play in the top right, allowing White the empty corner:

My assessment of the game and players:

Stronger than me. Wouldn't be surprised if they were professional. Every stone feels like it has purpose, and some of the ideas (that, ok, I might be projecting a bit) seem more clever than I would have come up with.

My idea for this exercise would be for others to do something similar, or query / content my points and musings, and start a discussion on possible alternatives and why they feel better or worse than the game in question, or my counter proposals.

Shaddy · #6

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Logans Run $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . 5 . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'll take a crack at this.

1, 2, and 3 are, as topaz said, not really worth comments.

4 is not really my style: I usually play the last corner. However, I've tried the high approach in this situation before, since I don't like being forced to approach the other 3-4 after black gets his enclosure (feels like he got the enclosure for free...). Low approach is probably better though, the high approach will be gote for sure.

5 is interesting. I think a pincer is the correct move (right side is not very interesting, especially since there's no enclosure on the bottom), but it's rare to see 1 space high pincer of a low approach stone. I suppose one space low pincer is out, because white will play this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Logans Run $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and black feels uncomfortably low on the right. Can't fix that with a single enclosure either, if black plays 1 space high white can still come in, there's plenty of room. Any low enclosure is just.. too low, and 2 space high is kind of loose on both sides. So remaining common pincers are two-space high and three-space low. I'm not a fan of the two-space high pincer here, because of this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Logans Run $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White gets an attack that develops the corner. That leaves three-space low, and I think in that case w might just play 6 in the original, because black doesn't really have a great followup in the corner. Having gone through the common pincers, why the one-space high instead of two-space low or three-space high? I don't know any of those joseki, so I won't comment, but I suspect the two-space low suffers from the same problem as one-space low and three-space high the same as three-space low. This one-space high pincer, however, does not have those problems- it's hard to attack (because if white splits it from the corner, his shape tends to have more weaknesses) and there's a nice followup if white decides to take the side. I don't really know any joseki for the one-space high pincer though, so I will not give a variation for if white decides not to tenuki.

On to white 6! I think if white does not play here, and takes the last corner, black can take the right star point and white's approach stone will be looking rather sickly. If white approaches, black will use a loose pincer hoping to get some force behind the upper right. So white plays a move that offers some support to that stone.

Black 7- Black can't block the other side, that would be overconcentrated. Taking an enclosure is quite huge, and this one induces black to add a move to the upper right, which he wanted to do anyway. I don't like the result if black takes the last open corner- white will approach this corner for sure, settle the group a little, and then switch back to the upper right. It feels like that would be letting white decide the pace of the game.

White 8: forced.

topazg · #7

Thanks Shaddy, nice to see your opinions too, particularly on the pincer issues. I wonder if other people feel the same way on that one ?

What strength do you think they are?

Magicwand · #8

topazg wrote:

What strength do you think they are?

i remember high pincer in this game was played by choi-chulhan and lee changho during kuksu title match many years ago. (i think i was 9 years ago)
infact that opening is all they played during that title match.
choi chulhan won the title by beating lee changho and stop playing this opening.

Mark356 · #9

I like White 4 too, and I've been playing it a lot recently. I've been playing through a lot of Shuusaku games, and I feel like in that position, White very often did approach. (If Black responded by taking the empty corner and then White approached at R7, you'd have a modified Shusaku fuseki, of course.) I was amused at Shaddy's reply, because the three-space low pincer, wedging into White's formation, is a very common reply for Shuusaku (as black). (That is, when the approach is also a very long extension, Shuusaku very often plays the three-point low pincer that is also a wedge.) Black is OK with the keima press, since he's got a stone perfectly positioned to turn into a group that's strong enough to mess with the wall. Black is also OK with a taisha or other counter-pincer.

hyperpape · **#10**

Mark, while there's a lot to be learned from games in Shusaku's era, you can't say that a move is good because they played it back then. In particular, they played with no komi, so the opening played very differently (White had to be very active, while Black could be a bit passive or defensive).

There are a lot of new joseki since then, and ideas about which joseki to play in a given situation have changed quite a bit.

topazg · **#11**

hyperpape wrote:

Mark, while there's a lot to be learned from games in Shusaku's era, you can't say that a move is good because they played it back then. In particular, they played with no komi, so the opening played very differently (White had to be very active, while Black could be a bit passive or defensive).

There are a lot of new joseki since then, and ideas about which joseki to play in a given situation have changed quite a bit.

I kind of disagree with this. The move is obviously still good, komi has made a fair few differences, but we're talking a few points at professional level. Even professionals don't claim perfect moves, and there is obviously a wide range of options available. Shusaku was famous for responding to the approach with a diagonal, and that is sometimes considered slow without komi, but it's still a "good" move.

I think Mark raised a particularly good point, and us amateurs probably shouldn't get in the habit of being quite so specific about "this move is not good", especially if it has been previously played professionally.

Anyone with GoGoD capable of quickly checking their DB for :b1:

to

and the various :b5:

moves and their popularity, including separated out by century?

hyperpape · **#12**

I was referring to the three space low pincer in this position, not the Shusaku kosumi, Topazg.

It's true that joseki that are considered outdated (or bad in a particular situation) might only lose a few points. But a lot of choices in the opening are only a few points to begin with. You can make a mistake that's disastrous, but a lot of the questions we try to answer are about little things.

That's not to say your point doesn't make sense--maybe we should stop sweating it. There's the school of thought that we shouldn't worry about the opening until we're quite strong. Or maybe we should only worry about those disastrous moves--but that's a little contrary to the spirit of this exercise, imho.

topazg · **#13**

Yeah, I agree, but the various interpretations of Shusaku playing it does not convince me whether a loose low pincer is worse, or just a different flavour aiming at a different goal. I would feel confident if a pro said "this is too inactive, it's better to play here", otherwise I wouldn't assume Shusaku playing differently means "things have changed now because of komi" so much as different pro styles. The spirit of this primary exercise was to assess alternatives and discuss whether they feel / look worse or not

If there's some good data such as pro games 1950 and later in the position after :w4:

then that would provide some very interesting discussion material (or of course, a few lines to describe why another pincer might not be good enough, if you want to volunteer one

)

Remember here that Go Seigen made the "White 8 is bad" comment in the mid 90's, which saw the move in question disappear out of professional play. Before then, it had been played over 120 times with a 56% win rate, and no proper explanation for why White 8 is bad has been found (nor whether it is even true, based on prior professional record).

John Fairbairn · **#14**

I have the benefit of just having delivered the draft for my next Famous Games book (the Go 1-3-5 New Fuseki game versus Shusai), and the first part of it is a long analysis of how fuseki evolved in the run-up to and through New Fuseki.

On that basis I can tell you that White 2 was originally a way of inhibiting Black from playing the Shusaku opening. It was not the only way. It was Shuei's way (Shusai had another way). It was enough to cause Black discomfort (at pro level) and so, for a time, Black responded by playing a high shimari in the upper right as a way of countering White's influence from White 2.

But that gives White the option of a diagonal fuseki, which tends to dissolve into a fighting game, not something Black normally wants with no komi, and so a Black 3 in the lower right was favoured.

White 4 in the upper right invited Black to make the now "bad" Shusaku komoku, and even today it remains White's second commonest move. (4-4 in the lower left is now commoner, mainly as a result of New Fuseki ideas.

Black 5 (high pincer) was seen as the most energetic (sente-keeping) reply, the high pincer offsetting White 2. But nowadays it is more common to play in the lower left. Overall, C4 is commonest, followed by D4. The high pincer is third, and has been the most common move lately. All the other pincers have been tried, with L16 being more common than M16, and the low pincers all being very uncommon. Again, the thinking is "high to offset White 2". Shusak's komoku is now very rare in this position.

White 6 is by far the commonest move here, but a smattering of plays in the lower left, upper right and lower right are seen. Even though it's only one point difference, R10 instead of White 6 is hyper-rare (keep away from thickness).

Black 7 is uncommon, as is every Black move here except Q16. That makes sense. To play the severest move possible and then follow with a tenuki is contradictory, and only makes sense if Black is trying to present White with psychological problems.

White 8 is bad - at least in the sense that of the four GoGoD games with this position, Black won all. Apart from the first example (Cho Hun-hyeon in 2006), all have featured only young non-title pros in China. The only alternative to W8 has been one example of P17, and Black won that, too.

On a side note, I did an analysis once of how many points of adjacent territory, on average, various shapes resulted in. The shimaris all give about 16 points. The two-space extension on the side gives only 5. This third-line extension was also criticised under New Fuseki theory, for different reasons, among which it tends to lead to a tray shape rather than a box. So, joking aside, White 8 may be bad after all, although here the approach at White 4 can be queried. In general it can be said that White is playing in Black's sphere of influence, which Go Seigen thinks is daft. If you accept his sage advice, the "disruptive" style of amateur play that has been highlighted on this forum recently is also one to be wary of: caveat disruptor.

logan · **#15**

Magicwand wrote:

i remember high pincer in this game was played by choi-chulhan and lee changho during kuksu title match many years ago. (i think i was 9 years ago)
infact that opening is all they played during that title match.
choi chulhan won the title by beating lee changho and stop playing this opening.

Very close.

The high-pincer was played in the final game of the 47th Kuksu match to edge out Ch'oe Ch'eol-han 3-2 over Yi Ch'ang-ho. Ch'oe Ch'eol-han proceeded to use the same high pincer a few more times against Yi Ch'ang-ho during the year with success. Due to the final Kuksu game and the proceeding games renewed interest and research was giving the high pincer and the Black 1 to 5 layout.

Below I have included a basic overview of some of the upper-right research results.

[sgf-full](;
GM[1]FF[4]VW[]
SZ[19]
HA[0]
ST[0]
DT[2011-01-18]
KM[6.5]
RU[Japanese];B[qd];W[dd];B[pq];W[oc];B[md]
C[The right side is the emphasis of research. Sometimes the left \
side is played on before returning to the right.

A-C: Many new variations were uncovered from around 2004-06.

D: Took prominence in 2006-09.]
LB[qk:D][mc:C][ne:B][oe:A]

(;W[oe];B[pf];W[kd];B[mf];W[mc];B[nd];W[nc];B[od];W[pd]
C[W14 marks the contemporary variation, preventing Black from gaining \
as solid of thickness and reducing White's bad aji @ A.]
LB[lc:A]

;B[pc];W[pe];B[qe];W[of];B[og];W[qc];B[pb];W[qf];B[nf];W[pg]
;B[ne];W[pf];B[rc];W[ld];B[ph];W[oh];B[ng];W[qh];B[pi];W[re]
;B[rd];W[rg];B[se];W[rf];B[ri];W[qi];B[qj];W[pj];B[oi];W[rj]
;B[qk];W[si];B[rk];W[sf];B[qb];W[nh]
C[W50 is optional.]
;B[mh];W[ni];B[oj];W[nj]
;B[ok])
(;W[ne]
(;B[pf];W[qc];B[pd];W[pc];B[nd];W[od];B[oe];W[nf];B[nb]
C[Some professional games have been lost because of players being \
unaware of a complicated latter option for White.

A: White doesn't have ladder.

B: White has ladder.

Famous example:
Yi Se-tol v. Yi Ch'ang-ho
38th Wangwi Final, Game 2]
LB[of:B][nc:A]

(;W[nc];B[mc];W[ob];B[ph];W[lf];B[jd]
C[Established joseki.]
)
(;W[of];B[pe];W[pg]
C[W18 begins a sharp corner fight.]
;B[rc];W[rb];B[rd];W[qf];B[qg];W[rg]
;B[qh];W[re];B[og];W[ph];B[ng];W[mf]LB[pi:A]
))
(;B[pe];W[me];B[ld];W[le]
C[The extra push of W10 resulted in some new variations.]
;B[kd];W[nd];B[gc];W[id];B[ic]
;W[hd];B[hc];W[jd];B[jc];W[ke];B[gd]
C[This is the most famous variation as played by Yi Ch'ang-ho. \
White continues with A or B depending upon the lower-right.]
LB[lb:B][qf:A]
))
(;W[mc];B[lc];W[ld]
(;B[nc];W[mb];B[me];W[nd];B[kd];W[ne];B[lb];W[nb];B[mf]
;W[qf]
C[Several new variations came after this.]
)
(;B[kc];W[pe];B[me];W[mb]
C[W12 invokes a modern-style opening fight.]
;B[qe];W[pf];B[qf];W[kd]))
(;W[qk];B[qo];W[qh];B[od]
C[A is most common for White, but B is sometimes played.]
LB[pc:B][dp:A]

(;W[dp];B[nc]
C[White has the aji of A-C to work with.]
LB[qe:C][rd:B][lc:A]
)
(;W[pc];B[pd];W[mc];B[nc];W[nb];B[nd]
(;W[lc]
C[W16 is no longer played because of a bad fight for White after \
Black cuts @ A.]
LB[mb:A]
)
(;W[mb];B[qc];W[jc]
C[Simple exchange.]
))))[/sgf-full]

ethanb · **#16**

Guess it's my turn. Start of a recent game on IGS that I found interesting:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Dusk Eagle · **#17**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . a 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Heh, the difference between having and not having those star points is quite drastic to me.

Anyway, :b1:

through

all seem pretty natural. After that I agree that :b5:

is the biggest area, but I would have probably approached at 'a' (may be a style thing). If white attached underneath, below seems like a good result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White can obviously choose a different joseki, but the one above (and it's sister variation where black plays the solid connection for :b4:

) are by far the most common, and black doesn't mind switching it up.

Black could also play the avalanche like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 O 4 . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I prefer the other way, but I can't say this is bad.

What I don't like is :b7:

. This seems like it is asking white to separate you into two groups. Falling back with a two-space extension seems like a better move. I can't find any examples of this move in pro play (using DailyJoseki.com).

Either :w8:

or attaching on the head of one of the two stones (for a leaning attack) seems best. My vague feeling says that :w8:

is best, but I don't feel strong enough to accurately assess it.

ethanb · **#18**

Dusk Eagle wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . a 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Heh, the difference between having and not having those star points is quite drastic to me.

Anyway, :b1:

through

all seem pretty natural. After that I agree that :b5:

is the biggest area, but I would have probably approached at 'a' (may be a style thing). If white attached underneath, below seems like a good result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White can obviously choose a different joseki, but the one above (and it's sister variation where black plays the solid connection for :b4:

) are by far the most common, and black doesn't mind switching it up.

Black could also play the avalanche like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 O 4 . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I prefer the other way, but I can't say this is bad.

What I don't like is :b7:

. This seems like it is asking white to separate you into two groups. Falling back with a two-space extension seems like a better move. I can't find any examples of this move in pro play (using DailyJoseki.com).

Either :w8:

or attaching on the head of one of the two stones (for a leaning attack) seems best. My vague feeling says that :w8:

is best, but I don't feel strong enough to accurately assess it.

Thanks, didn't notice the star points were missing. Guess I've got another little thing to fix in Quarry before tagging a new version for release.

I was white, and I agree that 8 was best, as it left miai for which stone to attack. But when I played a 3-space low pincer on top he moved out immediately. I think that was a mistake, but I think he could have done better, and maybe the sequence up to 8 isn't as horrible as it seems for black.

If I were black, I'd look at this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X 9 4 6 1 . 2 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . 3 5 7 0 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Chew Terr · **#19**

I would appreciate a look at the opening of this game, if the offer's still open? It's something a bit different than my normal (Kobayashi) fuseki, and was actually my first game in a few weeks.

SGF:

'; var displayText = ""; var originalDisplayText = ""; if (myVal.length > 0) { myVal = myVal.replace(/
/g, "%0D%0A"); var lineArray = myVal.split("%0D%0A"); var dollarIndex = lineArray[0].indexOf("$$"); if (dollarIndex >= 0) { var spaceIndex = lineArray[0].indexOf(" ", dollarIndex); if (spaceIndex > 0) { displayText = lineArray[0].substring(spaceIndex); originalDisplayText = displayText; displayText = displayText.replace(/\n/g, "
"); } } if (originalDisplayText != "") { myVal = myVal.replace(originalDisplayText, ""); } myVal = myVal.replace(/\s+/g, '%20'); myVal = myVal.replace(/#+/g, '%23'); myVal = myVal.replace(/&+/g, '%26'); myVal = myVal.replace(/\++/g, '%2B'); myVal = myVal.replace(/\/+/g, '%2F'); myVal = myVal.replace(/'%'+/g, '%25'); myVal = myVal.replace(/:+/g, '%3A'); myVal = myVal.replace(/;+/g, '%3B'); myVal = myVal.replace(/<+/g, '%3C'); myVal = myVal.replace(/>+/g, '%3E'); myVal = myVal.replace(/\?+/g, '%3F'); myVal = myVal.replace(/\'+/g, '%27'); myVal = myVal.replace(/\"+/g, '%22'); } document.write("

$\"Go$
" + displayText + "

");

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]BL[807.869] ;W[fp]WL[888.781] ;B[hr]BL[801.561] ;W[gs]WL[878.016] ;B[ii]BL[767.669] ;W[jk]WL[872.859] ;B[ki]BL[756.258] ;W[lk]WL[866.15] ;B[lp]BL[724.047] ;W[in]WL[855.345] ;B[io]BL[714.131] ;W[jn]WL[848.466] ;B[mp]BL[698.232] ;W[nq]WL[845.878] ;B[mm]BL[630.557] ;W[nk]WL[835.759] ;B[lh]BL[594.539] ;W[lf]WL[816.001] ;B[oj]BL[574.154] ;W[mi]WL[810.571] ;B[mh]BL[568.613] ;W[ni]WL[800.196] ;B[oi]BL[499.331] ;W[nh]WL[795.747] ;B[mf]BL[498.275] ;W[me]WL[778.458] ;B[oh]BL[484.868] ;W[kj]WL[768.913] ;B[lr]BL[412.51] ;W[lq]WL[764.489] ;B[kq]BL[407.26] ;W[mr]WL[762.313] ;B[kr]BL[393.837] ;W[ko]WL[757.074] ;B[kp]BL[391.66] ;W[np]WL[753.602] ;B[jo]BL[359.853] ;W[kn]WL[737.32] ;B[ob]BL[295.767] ;W[nb]WL[733.338] ;B[kf]BL[260.709] ;W[le]WL[729.284] ;B[lg]BL[230.436] ;W[pn]WL[704.741] ;B[pm]BL[210.234] ;W[on]WL[680.016] ;B[na]BL[190.415] ;W[ma]WL[676.522] ;B[oa]BL[184.755] ;W[lb]WL[674.181] ;B[qp]BL[130.721] ;W[pq]WL[668.881] ;B[sr]BL[116.829] ;W[qr]WL[665.571] ;B[no]BL[94.69] ;W[qm]WL[658.006] ;B[rm]BL[44.534] ;W[qo]WL[649.378] ;B[rn]BL[38.234] ;W[om]WL[640.998] ;B[pl]BL[18.15] ;W[mn]WL[624.914] ;B[ol]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[nl]WL[618.552] ;B[mo]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ln]WL[609.716] ;B[ie]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[of]WL[564.15] ;B[og]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[pe]WL[560.949] ;B[qe]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[oe]WL[558.835] ;B[qf]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ok]WL[535.539] ;B[pk]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[hb]WL[532.227] ;B[eb]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[db]WL[529.098] ;B[da]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ca]WL[525.57] ;B[ea]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[bb]WL[522.722] ;B[bk]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[bj]WL[519.264] ;B[aj]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ai]WL[515.951] ;B[ak]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[bh]WL[508.886] ;B[ro]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[je]WL[491.133] ;B[jf]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[oc]WL[487.236] ;B[qb]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[hc]WL[481.515] ;B[gd]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[id]WL[477.236] ;B[he]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ef]WL[472.301] ;B[eg]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ee]WL[467.498] ;B[nj]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[mj]WL[460.619] ;B[nn]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[nm]WL[452.94] ;B[jj]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ij]WL[441.915] ;B[ji]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ff]WL[431.7] ;B[gf]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ec]WL[425.453] ;B[fb]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[fi]WL[366.16] ;B[gh]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[gj]WL[354.252] ;B[ke]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[kd]WL[350.384] ;B[po]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[oo]WL[346.091] ;B[li]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[lj]WL[342.59] ;B[hn]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[hm]WL[338.898] ;B[gm]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[gl]WL[334.278] ;B[dn]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[dl]WL[327.469] ;B[cl]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[do]WL[325.441] ;B[co]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[hs]WL[321.665] ;B[is]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[gc]WL[313.989] ;B[fd]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[cs]WL[295.85] ;B[bs]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ig]WL[291.031] ;B[kg]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ds]WL[288.708] ;B[ga]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[gb]WL[285.41] ;B[ha]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ia]WL[281.352] ;B[fa]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[jb]WL[280.087] ;B[hi]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[nf]WL[255.247] ;B[mg]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ls]WL[252.292] ;B[ks]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ms]WL[244.924] ;B[hj]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ik]WL[242.338] ;B[rs]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[qs]WL[238.842] ;B[sq]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[df]WL[233.888] ;B[fh]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ek]WL[225.502] ;B[od]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[nd]WL[222.125] ;B[qo]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ss]WL[210.505] ;B[ib]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ic]WL[207.232] ;B[rs]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[qd]WL[195.727] ;B[rd]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ss]WL[193.215] ;B[im]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[hl]WL[186.232] ;B[rs]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[fo]WL[180.966] ;B[ho]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ss]WL[177.147] ;B[fs]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[fr]WL[173.635] ;B[rs]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[ir]WL[170.161] ;B[jr]BL[30]OB[5] ;W[js]WL[164.889] ;B[cb]BL[30]OB[4]C[Chew [3k\]: =( ] ;W[is]WL[130.851] ;B[cc]BL[30]OB[4] ;W[cd]WL[125.899] ;B[bc]BL[30]OB[4] ;W[bd]WL[123.728] ;B[ba]BL[30]OB[4] ;W[ad]WL[117.951] ;B[ac]BL[30]OB[4]C[numata [2k\]: sory Chew [3k\]: Eh, my mistake Chew [3k\]: Well done ] ;W[]WL[81.118] ;B[]BL[30]OB[4]TW[ja][ka][la][ib][kb][mb][kc][lc][mc][ld][md][ae][be][ce][de][af][bf][ag][bg][ah][ch][bi][fk][gk][kk][mk][il][jl][kl][ll][ml][gm][im][jm][km][lm][mm][fn][gn][hn][nn][go][ho][io][jo][lo][mo][no][hp][ip][jp][kp][lp][mp][op][eq][gq][hq][iq][jq][kq][oq][hr][jr][kr][lr][nr][or][pr][es][fs][ks][ns][os][ps]TB[aa][ca][pa][qa][ra][sa][ab][bb][pb][rb][sb][qc][rc][sc][qd][sd][ge][re][se][hf][if][rf][sf][gg][hg][ig][jg][pg][qg][rg][sg][hh][ih][jh][kh][ph][qh][rh][sh][pi][qi][ri][si][pj][qj][rj][sj][rk][sk][al][bl][ql][rl][sl][am][bm][qm][sm][an][bn][cn][sn][ao][so][ap][bp][sp][aq][ar][as]C[Chew [3k\]: Thank you for the game numata [2k\]: thank you numata [2k\]: you strong very numata [2k\]: good by ])').replace('http://lifein19x19.com', 'https://lifein19x19.com').replace('http://www.lifein19x19.com', 'https://www.lifein19x19.com') + "

");
[/go]

Dusk Eagle · **#20**

Hmm, the problem seems to be that there is a [*go] tag in your sgf, and that is messing up the forum's parsing. I've reposted it here for now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Moves 1 to 8 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Edit: As a workaround, you can add a [/go] tag after your sgf, and that seems to fix it. Or, you could reorder your post so the diagram comes first. I just reported this issue in the Forum/Site Suggestions and Bugs subforum.

White 8 is bad

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