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Offline Mnemonic
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #521 Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:03 am 
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I created a sgf of this game and noticed two things. The first one is pretty superficial, but blacks next move is 125 not 121.
The other thing is that my prisoner count differs from yours. After double checking I found it to be move 107 where Violence deducted 2 black prisoners instead of one. The actual count should be B:54 W:52.

Upon request I edited the post to include the sgf. It includes the moves up to 124 (including the ones from GD) and the changes the big brothers made. I don't know how to change the prisoner count, so they are annotated in the comments.



Attachments:
BB game.sgf [3.6 KiB]
Downloaded 2511 times

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Last edited by Mnemonic on Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
This post by Mnemonic was liked by 4 people: Chew Terr, emeraldemon, Gresil, shapenaji
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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #522 Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:17 am 
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Thanks Mnemonic! Is the SGF up somewhere?

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Offline Gresil
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #523 Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:38 am 
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Much obliged. What the hell was I thinking at 33? The reclining man here now is not the reclining man of yesterday.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #524 Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:14 pm 
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Thanks, Mnemonic! I was afraid that the GD portion might be permanently lost.

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #525 Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:44 pm 
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It's Gresil's turn next, right?

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #526 Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:16 pm 
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I think he knows that, he's probably just reading.

Yeah... I'm pretty sure I'm gonna have to change this move... and then the move after... and then probably one more move after that, I think...

That's going to be a large point deficit... but the alternative is losing.
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #527 Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:02 am 
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The fact that Violence has never actually said what he plans on doing is totally ramping up the suspense.

This post by jts was liked by: Phelan
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Offline Gresil
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #528 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:15 am 
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Sorry for the delay. I've been got by a virus and I can't bring myself to focus on reading this before the fever goes down.

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Offline Gresil
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #529 Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:32 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 121 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . B . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can't read any variation to a sufficient depth, but I suppose this gets us the required liberties. I don't see an immediate refutation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 121 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 6 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X 5 |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X 4 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 3 |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:b7: fills. :w2: at T9 doesn't seem to do any better.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 121 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X 5 |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O 3 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 6 . 4 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O 7 |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 8 |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This fails.

B S7 I can't read at all.

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #530 Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:20 am 
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Uhhhhh...

There's no way that can be right. But I guess I will have to do some reading.

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #531 Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:38 am 
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Could you show us the sequence you want to see?
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #532 Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:04 pm 
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To observers( and Gresil too ):
I don't think that the two elder brothers will allow this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O 5 |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X 4 |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 2 |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . B . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 2 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O O |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X 1 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 4 X 3 |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . 6 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To observers:
As I have mentioned in previous posts, white wins a straight liberties race. Black's only chance is to make us give up a ko threat to win the race. If they can make it a ko such that we have to give up our left side group, then they get about as much on the left as they lose on the right, and it is still a wide open game.
However, if they don't find a ko, they lose big. If they find a ko that forces us to give them either our lower left or upper left group, that will not be big enough, and we will go into yose about 20 points up.

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #533 Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:11 pm 
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Gresil wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 121 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 6 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X 5 |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X 4 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 3 |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If for no other reason, this is wrong because :w6: nets white an extra liberty (white can make an eye and we have to approach from both sides). If we play this way we have to push there first. If we push there first, though, it's clear that white can capture us directly.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 121 W52 B53
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X a |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X a |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X a |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X a |[/go]


Next I just want to say that this pattern is terrible for getting liberties, because the points marked 'a' are NOT liberties, black must fill them in (if we had an eye it would make them approach moves white would have to play, as we could give up our tail. But we don't so they aren't).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 13 fills
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O 5 |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 3 |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . 7 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Finally, starting from Gresil's desired diagram, white captures us directly like this.

I think the important thing to know is that you can't get liberties like this. Next I will read out if white can hane after we play the extension. I didn't think so before, and Violence let us play this, so I still don't think so, but I should check first.

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #534 Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:21 pm 
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I'd rather not post the actual sequences just yet, it spoils the surprise, I think.

I think I can at least show why I thought we were going to win, and why I think this doesn't work anymore.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 121 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . 8 7 0 . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . 4 1 6 . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . 5 O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X 9 O O 2 X O 3 . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm sure we can all read this as 4 liberties to 3, in our favor. That's what prompted my declaration of victory.

You'll have to excuse me for the crappy reading, as it was made 21 moves ago, and it's pretty easy to mess up when you're looking ahead too deeply.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 98B W46 B50 The position that I read from.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . W . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X C . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 121 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . 8 7 0 . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . 2 1 6 . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X 5 3 O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X 4 O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O a . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Of course, my sequence fails because of the simple suji of W4, fixing white's shape and creating a liberty problem at a.

However, I've done a lot of reading on this, and I think this fight won't end the game. I have a few tesuji prepared, and I can't see any holes in my sequences, so let's hope for the best here.

I think, worst case scenario, this will turn into a short ko that we will win, and then both colors will make life on the top side, with us ending in gote. The S13 group should be dead, but with white sente and lots of potential, I think the game will continue. Also, the outcome may result in us being behind on correction points.

In the best case scenario, white slips up and dies in a fire everywhere and black revels in victory. Of course, I have faith that Shapenaji has read at least as far as I have and is already making plans for his upcoming play on the bottom side.

At the very least, I hope we can come out of this with some correctional point advantage.

Unfortunately, not to sound arrogant, but the sequences I have in mind are probably beyond Daniel's level.

But... they're also probably beyond Joaz's too. Hum...
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #535 Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:44 pm 
Gosei
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Rejected...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 120 W54 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . C . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I expect this. White has to play an approach move, so we win the race.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 120 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O 8 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 6 7 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 4 |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . 5 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this, which was what I expected originally, is actually a ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 120 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 8 9 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O a |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O 0 |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X b |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 3 2 1 6 |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O 7 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now I'm a little confused, though, because tabemasu in another thread thought white was ahead... if we capture all this I have a hard time seeing that... Maybe I misread something? Wouldn't be the first time...

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #536 Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:24 am 
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GD Posts: 720
Rejected.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 120 W55 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O C . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . C . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As I expected... I have to change this move.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #537 Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:21 am 
Judan
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To observers:
I think that Violence just made a minor probabalistic error.

Background: anybody who has read this position in depth knows that:
1) We can win the right side semeai easily.
2) We have the liberty-gaining tesuji at S15 which wins the upper semeai for us.
3) So the best that black can do is start a ko, lose the semeais, and get a compensating ko threat.
4) The only ko threat big enough is one to kill our left side group. Our top left is not big enough.
5) If we can defend the our left side group three times, it is safe.
6) Therefore black needs to start the ko after eliminating our internal ko threats. This is best done with moves like Violence just played.

Also, it is obvious that:
1) Gresil is on the wrong track, or he would not have tried the watari.
2) Daniel too is on the wrong track; he just diverges later. If he were reading the necessity for a ko, Violence would have let his move ride. Since Violence changed his latest move, we now can infer that Daniel is trying to win one of the two possible semeais. Either he is trying to win the upper one but does not see S15, or he is trying to win the right side one but does not see the throw-ins that we have.

But, sooner or later black must play the move that Violence just disapproved. Or black doesn't get the ko.

So why does Violence spend an extra point NOW to change it? One of his teammates might discover that black needs a ko before the next move. Waiting is a no-lose proposition for Violence. Maybe they discover it, in which case he saves a point. Maybe they don't, in which case he can still disapprove, change it, and be no worse off than he is now.

The best play was for Violence to wait one move.

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #538 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:07 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 122 W55 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O W . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O C . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . C . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I didn't read long enough to be sure if this is necessary, or if we can win the fight. All I know is, this move is free, costs no more than a ko threat, and makes O16 gote. It seems like, if we can win this fight, we MIGHT need this.

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #539 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:16 am 
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:clap: :salute:

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #540 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:51 am 
Gosei
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KGS: lavalamp
Tygem: imapenguin
IGS: lavalamp
OGS: daniel_the_smith
I thought this gained white a liberty, but on closer inspection it doesn't. Though I still wonder what was wrong with my move, as it seems like a better way to win this. Maybe I misread something there, too?

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