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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #541 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:53 am 
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Thought I'd add a little more here, this is their most dangerous variation, and I may need to reach in and help:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 122 W55 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . 4 X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . a O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X 3 5 |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O 2 |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X 1 |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X b . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And now we can't play "a", we must play "b"

If we play "a", the following happens:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 122 W55 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . W O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X X X |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O 1 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 2 . 4 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O 3 |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And we get a ko where they take first, on the other hand if we play on the other side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 122 W55 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X 4 1 O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X 2 O O X X X |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X 3 O O 5 X . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X W . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And we take first, with the excellent follow-up capacity of killing black on top.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #542 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:44 pm 
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Our next two moves must be S15 and O18. Order does not matter. So...

I approve.

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #543 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:19 pm 
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Approved.

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Offline Gresil
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #544 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:57 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 123 W55 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O B |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #545 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:04 pm 
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Approved.

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #546 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:23 am 
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Rejected.
Called it...


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 123 W59 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X B |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Gresil
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #547 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:43 am 
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Whoa, talk about a blind spot.

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #548 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:11 am 
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Wow a lot of my moves have been changed lately, I think I'm out of shape or something.

After like 15 minutes of making this post I can't see how this move is any better. We can win the race with either move, so... ?

The 4-5 exchange doesn't gain white any liberties, it's still white's turn and black is a liberty ahead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 123 W59 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X 5 . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X 3 O O 4 X O O 1 |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I also considered white going at (N17 or O17 or O18) to get more liberties, and in all three cases this move doesn't seem to make a difference.

Also, white next at P15 is forcing for either move. So what am I missing? :scratch:

(And as far as I can tell either (EDIT after more reading: neither) move allows us to kill the right side white stones.)

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #549 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:30 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 124 W59 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O W |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This move still makes those others gote. It should accomplish what the last move tried to, in addition to forcing

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #550 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:39 am 
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Yeah, and that's another way to show that the two moves are the same with regard to liberties.

Argh, this is driving me nuts.

Why did Violence change that move? I can't figure out how it could be 4 points better.

(btw I think this white move is pointless, but I don't expect it to be changed since it seems harmless also)

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #551 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:42 am 
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I agree completely with Terr's reasoning, and therefore approve.

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #552 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:06 am 
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One of those situations where I really hate being right about my teammates...

Last thing I want is for them to feel lost, but I don't think there's any other way out of this situation.
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #553 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:59 am 
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I would kill to know what's in Violence's hide tags...

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Offline lorill
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #554 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:26 pm 
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@Daniel
You might want to kill too after reading it :batman:
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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #555 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:07 pm 
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Approved.

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #556 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:04 pm 
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Uh... could we trigger this move? It seems kinda obvious this time.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 124 W59 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X B . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #557 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:11 pm 
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So did the last move. :evil:

But yeah, I'm fine with that...

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #558 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:24 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 126 W59 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X W . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X B . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 126 W59 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X B . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X W . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We can't focus on the right side like this, because of this move. We don't have enough liberties on top to kill the right side immediately. Let's look at moves on the top to get more liberties.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 126 W59 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . a X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X d c O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X b O O X B . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X W . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

W'a' is refuted by B'b'
The right move seems like it has to be 'c' or 'd'. I like the look of 'd', so I'm taking it. I'm sorry I can't offer more, but I'm well out of my depths and lost. I need help, please?

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #559 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:00 pm 
Judan
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Kaya handle: Test
Younger brother clearly states that he knows that we need more liberties up top. He then proceeds to play a move that has 2 of 4 liberties gone when it hits the board, AND is not connected to our vulnerable upper group. I must get a bamboo stick to whack him with and get him focused on liberties for our group.

EDIT: Hmm... there are some complex lines here...must rethink who I'm gonna whack.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #560 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:46 pm 
Judan
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Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
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Kaya handle: Test
I do not approve.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 126 W59 B55
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . W X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X C . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


More later...

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