Here's the position for a game, right after the first corner exchange.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Position at move 63, white to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . X . X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O . . O O X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . X . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X X X X X O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X X O X . . O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the review, my opponent and myself couldn't agree on the result.
What's your opinion on this position ? Better for black, for white, or even ?

black is better.
black is thicker.

reason:
they are pretty much equal but i dont like black aji in the middle.
i think white have to play there now orelse black will use that aji to get control of the middle.

again..it is my preference and other players might have different opinion and reason.
but i think most professionals will agree with my pick.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

I also think black is better here. His stones seem to work better together.

_________________
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
Associação Portuguesa de Go

I prefer black. Black has good aji in the center, I don't see any good way for white to prevent black from getting ahead in the center, even with sente.

It looks like there's a consensus and I'm the one wrong, then. I'll have to think a bit more about it I guess.

I also agree that Black is better.

But not by all that much. It is still a game, particularly at the kyu level.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Well, you're not alone. For me white was an easy pick. As white, I would play K4 and consider this a won game. I guess it goes to show that if you are strong enough to know how to use thickness, then you can recognize it's value.

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c White to play, prisoners - komi = 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . X . X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O . . O O X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . X . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O X X X X X . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Simplifying the position a bit, Black has ca. 8 and White has ca. 24. White has ca. 16 points more and sente. Black has ca. 5 stones more on the outside than White. This should be very easy for Black.

EDIT: The difference of prisoners (Black must have 7 more) and komi (I have guessed it as 7) appears to be 0. The other values are corrected accordingly.

I agree, black is better
Well this game was a quick game (I'm the opponent of Lorill) and after the end of the corner sequence, I didn't felt bad but neither ahead. But I think white R14 corner approach wasn't good at all after this.

Edit : @Robertjasiek : what means "ca." ?

@Robert: Where did the stone at H11 come from? Is that based on Black getting one move in the center in exchange for the aji of the (removes) E11/E12/E13 stones?

OK, I will give a dissenting opinion. I think the game is still playable for both sides, and I would not mind taking W in this position. W has a considerable lead in secure territory. While it is true that B has superior thickness, W has sente now to do something about that. For example, W can make the beautiful shoulder hit at Q10 to negate much B center thickness. It also looks like an invasion at R17 can easily live, leaving B with very little territory.

Thanks lorill for presenting us with a great position to analyze, perfect for this forum. I would be really interested in hearing a definitive opinion from a professional.

Herman, H11 is a sample exchange for A16, just to remind us that Black has one or two sente plays in the center.

Pilgrim, "ca." means ca. Easy:) For Black I have counted K19 and J15 1/2 each. For White, I have not counted D19 etc. but this is a simplification. It makes some sense because Black E19 threatens D18. So it is not just White who can make some territory there. I have counted E13 but not more points below there; this is also an approximation. So "ca." is pretty necessary.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Reply to mitsun
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . X . X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O . . O O X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . X . X . X . . . . . 7 5 8 . |
$$ | . X X O X X X X X O . . . . . X 6 . . |
$$ | . O X X O X . . O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 3 . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Such sequences come to one's mind but they are not impressive. White cannot even live in sente in the upper right.

Here you go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circa

To me, it looks close but I would rather play black.

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

+1

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Hey Lorill, wanna ask a review of the game ? People looks interested and maybe we'll find that the problem occurs earlier in the game
If you can put the SGF online or I'll do it tonight after work

It was way too fast and full of mistakes to be worthy of a full review, but anyway, here's the game :