Initiatives for a Professional System in the West

hailthorn011 · **#21**

HermanHiddema wrote:

shapenaji wrote:

HermanHiddema wrote:

Most professional systems come about naturally, because there is enough money available to support professional players.

Suppose the AGA decided to start a pro system, and decided that from now on, all players 6 dan or stronger receive some professional rank (say 2 pro ranks per amateur rating point or something like that). Would it add any value to the US Open, that those players now have 1p, 2p, 6p or 9p behind their name instead of 6d, 7d or 8d? They are the same players, the level of play did not improve at all, and there is no money to actually pay them anything. Such "pro" ranks are completely empty.

Creating a pro system just because you like the sound of the word "professional" is Cargo Cult thinking.

So in this case, it was the Korean Baduk Association's idea, it's not just an empty title, the pros would have the freedom to participate in pro-only tournaments in Korea as guests of the KBA.

Admission to Asian tournaments is not a new thing. There have been western representatives playing in the Ing cup for years. And the fact is that they cannot compete. Even getting past the first round, just winning one game, is an exceptional performance.

I still don't see the added value in calling them professionals. If they are not strong enough to really compete with Asian pros, and they cannot earn a living wage from it in the US, then it is an empty title.

And those that are truly strong enough already have the option of becoming professional players in Asia, like Redmond, Taranu and Dinerchtein did.

What about people who can't afford a trip to another country? What about USA players who would like to have a professional status on their own soil? These are also things to consider.

I know I'm too old for any of these things to impact me (21, yeah.) but I still think it would be cool to have a pro system here in the states.

gowan · **#22**

hailthorn011 wrote:

Nathan wrote:

Why is it necessary to provide professional go players with enough money to maintain a living. A reasonable compensation at tournaments is all that is necessary. I think a pro league would add a lot to the game in the US. I would compare it to MLS vs EPL, even though its not as high level its still fun and promotes the game.

I think you've provided a great example here.

On another note, I think having a professional system in the USA would be a great boost for the community. I'd suggest that they start small. Create an annual tournament and try to find a sponsor for that one event. That shouldn't be too difficult. And have a yearly pro exam in which one has to perhaps pay a marginal entry fee. So, in essence, you could get some funding simply from the pro exams each year. I imagine a lot of players would be looking to participate each year.

But then you'd also have to make it to where the system doesn't become over-saturated, which could be tricky. Perhaps there could be a relegation system (like EPL) where if you finish at the bottom of the lowest tier in a year, you lose your professional ranking. The only problem there is, it doesn't really seem like you're a professional if you could lose your ranking.

Anyway, once you get the basic foundation out of the way, you could expand maybe to include another large annual tournament. I suppose this could be a title system, similar to what the East has.

Just an idea, though. I definitely know I'd be excited about the USA having a professional Go system.

I think people are forgetting history regarding pros in the USA. There used to be a professional association in the USA consisting of most of the pros (certified by the Asian pro go associations) residing in the USA but it degenerated into a political mess (Feng Yun 9p was not allowed to join) and is now defunct. In most respects there has long been an annual pro tournament in the USA, what used to be called the North American Masters tournament. There are a number of pros in Europe who are certified by the CJK pro associations. Maybe what is needed is just to find big corporate sponsors and organize a pro go association made up of "Western" pros that can function without dissolving in internal political strife.

Laman · **#23**

HermanHiddema wrote:

Laman wrote:

opportunity for top players to earn their living by go, thus allowing them to devote most of their time to it.

That does not require a professional system, that requires money. If enough money were available to pay top European amateurs a living wage, they could earn that money regardless of whether they call themselves 7d or 1p. Calling them professionals does not magically make money appear.

Creating a professional system without the money to support it is putting the cart before the horse. You need a financial base first, titles later, not the other way around.

well, you are right, but it was not the part of my post i expected people to answer... :-|

hailthorn011 wrote:

What about people who can't afford a trip to another country? What about USA players who would like to have a professional status on their own soil? These are also things to consider.

I know I'm too old for any of these things to impact me (21, yeah.) but I still think it would be cool to have a pro system here in the states.

however i share your enthusiasm, your view is a bit too simplistic. as of now, making our top players pros would be indeed only empty title. but i hope one day i will see a Western pro worth of the title

Mef · **#24**

Laman wrote:

but it is unfortunately a bit like building a house from the roof.

While it may not necessarily be good to build a house down from the roof, if you are someone who has no house it's hard not to appreciate a tent (=

I think a western semi-pro league would be a good idea so long as they can find the backing for it. Obviously if we could the ideal scenario would involve greatly expanding the player base, but there's no reason starting a professional league would prevent that. I actually think a league to follow would be beneficial as a "hook" to keep new players involved. A professional league is something that people can talk about when they don't have a chance to play, it's something that can be used to "keep go fresh" in a player's mind after they just learn, or let them live vicariously through their favorite players achievements (even if they themselves are still learning the basics or don't know how to play). It won't be at the same level per se as the eastern pro organizations, but it doesn't need to be. I think a reasonable comparison would be any small town that supports its minor league sports teams. Also starting something, and showing that go can be a revenue source (via merchandising or whatever) helps start the ball rolling to becoming more attractive to mainstream sponsors.

shapenaji · **#25**

HermanHiddema wrote:

Admission to Asian tournaments is not a new thing. There have been western representatives playing in the Ing cup for years. And the fact is that they cannot compete. Even getting past the first round, just winning one game, is an exceptional performance.

I still don't see the added value in calling them professionals. If they are not strong enough to really compete with Asian pros, and they cannot earn a living wage from it in the US, then it is an empty title.

And those that are truly strong enough already have the option of becoming professional players in Asia, like Redmond, Taranu and Dinerchtein did.

As I have heard the plan, it looks something like this:

A US program scouts for talent (Myung-Wan Kim looks to be at the head of this).
The talented are sent to Korea for a year to train.
They return and become American pros, they continue to study and make occasional trips abroad for preliminaries.

The single year in Korea is the big part here, this way they maintain their connections to friends and family.

And this is no different than the way the Japanese gave Korea a leg up on the go scene. Korean pros started considerably weaker, but the Japanese would train them, and they would return to Korea.

I really don't get the default hostility to this idea. Korea is trying to re-enact the spread of go as it was brought to them. It's their deal, why not give it a chance?

And yes, the big 3 have invited a select few westerners to play in the big tournaments. This would open up more. Ing is the exception that proves the rule.

HermanHiddema · **#26**

shapenaji wrote:

HermanHiddema wrote:

Admission to Asian tournaments is not a new thing. There have been western representatives playing in the Ing cup for years. And the fact is that they cannot compete. Even getting past the first round, just winning one game, is an exceptional performance.

I still don't see the added value in calling them professionals. If they are not strong enough to really compete with Asian pros, and they cannot earn a living wage from it in the US, then it is an empty title.

And those that are truly strong enough already have the option of becoming professional players in Asia, like Redmond, Taranu and Dinerchtein did.

As I have heard the plan, it looks something like this:

A US program scouts for talent (Myung-Wan Kim looks to be at the head of this).
The talented are sent to Korea for a year to train.
They return and become American pros, they continue to study and make occasional trips abroad for preliminaries.

The single year in Korea is the big part here, this way they maintain their connections to friends and family.

And this is no different than the way the Japanese gave Korea a leg up on the go scene. Korean pros started considerably weaker, but the Japanese would train them, and they would return to Korea.

I really don't get the default hostility to this idea. Korea is trying to re-enact the spread of go as it was brought to them. It's their deal, why not give it a chance?

And yes, the big 3 have invited a select few westerners to play in the big tournaments. This would open up more. Ing is the exception that proves the rule.

I'm not hostile towards this idea, but I am trying to be realistic. Simply said, I think that it is a bad idea to call players "professionals" if they are weak players who cannot earn a living wage from go.

I applaud the Korean efforts in this respect, but I still don't see what the real difference is with what players like Redmond, Taranu and Dinerchtein have done. They were strong, they went to Asia to study, they received a professional title from one of the Asian pro associations. The only difference here, it seems, is that the Hanguk Kiwon will not award these players a professional title directly, but will recommend that the AGA award that title.

Mef · **#27**

HermanHiddema wrote:

I applaud the Korean efforts in this respect, but I still don't see what the real difference is with what players like Redmond, Taranu and Dinerchtein have done. They were strong, they went to Asia to study, they received a professional title from one of the Asian pro associations. The only difference here, it seems, is that the Hanguk Kiwon will not award these players a professional title directly, but will recommend that the AGA award that title.

I believe the difference would be it's a formalized program, instead of an exceptional circumstance. In the last 40 years, the number of Western go professionals can be counted on your hands. If there is even 1 player per year to get through this program it will triple the rate western professionals are produced at.

tapir · **#28**

If you grant someone a professional status, there will be (monetary) expectations, no?

Expect discussions about prize money allocation, a push for more prize money in general, teaching privileges, ...

HermanHiddema · **#29**

Mef wrote:

HermanHiddema wrote:

I applaud the Korean efforts in this respect, but I still don't see what the real difference is with what players like Redmond, Taranu and Dinerchtein have done. They were strong, they went to Asia to study, they received a professional title from one of the Asian pro associations. The only difference here, it seems, is that the Hanguk Kiwon will not award these players a professional title directly, but will recommend that the AGA award that title.

I believe the difference would be it's a formalized program, instead of an exceptional circumstance. In the last 40 years, the number of Western go professionals can be counted on your hands. If there is even 1 player per year to get through this program it will triple the rate western professionals are produced at.

Those players that have made professional so far are generally those players that not only have the talent for it, but also the determination and self-confidence to move to Asia and study the game full time. Truly, I think that that, more than anything, is what it takes. Talent is great, but determination, self-confidence and a lot of hard work are what it really takes. And I don't think a year of study is is near enough to reach any serious level. If you want to progress, you need to constantly be challenged by other players of your own level or stronger.

And where do the players come from? Does the US go scene produce even one new young player per year with enough talent to make it that far? Will their parent approve of them moving to Korea for a year at a young age?

But suppose that happens, and in 10 years there are 10 new professionals from this program. Talented young players who have spent a year studying in Korea. Will they be able to seriously compete in international (or Korean) professional events? Will they be able to make a living from go in the US?

The west will need a serious boost in numbers, and a serious change in sponsor attitudes before there is enough money in the system to support an increasing number of professionals. You need to work it from the bottom up. Increase your player base, improve your youth programs, work on how go is perceived by parents, by sponsors, by society at large. And I do not think you can realistically skip those steps. Not if you want your pro system to be sustainable.

Mef · **#30**

HermanHiddema wrote:

But suppose that happens, and in 10 years there are 10 new professionals from this program. Talented young players who have spent a year studying in Korea. Will they be able to seriously compete in international (or Korean) professional events? Will they be able to make a living from go in the US?

The west will need a serious boost in numbers, and a serious change in sponsor attitudes before there is enough money in the system to support an increasing number of professionals. You need to work it from the bottom up. Increase your player base, improve your youth programs, work on how go is perceived by parents, by sponsors, by society at large. And I do not think you can realistically skip those steps. Not if you want your pro system to be sustainable.

One thing I have yet to understand about those with a negative view on this program is there is a perceived dichotomy.

Why does creating a system to raise the top levels of play in the US stop anyone from building youth programs? How does a kid going to study in Korea for a year prevent sponsors from giving money to tournaments? Why would you think the creation of a for generating stronger players work against raising awareness of go with society at large?

Equally as strange - why must these professionals make a living wage only from go? The people who are targets for this program are those who are already dedicating a large amount of their time to the game with no financial return, you would now be supplementing it by providing some. To draw from other activities - my hometown got a minor league hockey team a couple years back. When it came to town, local interest in hockey greatly rose. They aren't playing NHL quality hockey, sure, and every player in the league has to have a day job (I think average salary for the players is ~$15,000). Nevertheless there's a decent turnout at their games, and there is significant interest for local sponsors.

If you take a stronger player who is playing at a 7D+ AGA level and already committing a large amount of time and energy to go, provide them with the resources to take their game to the next level, and allow them to earn some cash on the side with it, I think it sounds like it could be a positive program.

hailthorn011 · **#31**

Mef wrote:

HermanHiddema wrote:

But suppose that happens, and in 10 years there are 10 new professionals from this program. Talented young players who have spent a year studying in Korea. Will they be able to seriously compete in international (or Korean) professional events? Will they be able to make a living from go in the US?

The west will need a serious boost in numbers, and a serious change in sponsor attitudes before there is enough money in the system to support an increasing number of professionals. You need to work it from the bottom up. Increase your player base, improve your youth programs, work on how go is perceived by parents, by sponsors, by society at large. And I do not think you can realistically skip those steps. Not if you want your pro system to be sustainable.

One thing I have yet to understand about those with a negative view on this program is there is a perceived dichotomy.

Why does creating a system to raise the top levels of play in the US stop anyone from building youth programs? How does a kid going to study in Korea for a year prevent sponsors from giving money to tournaments? Why would you think the creation of a for generating stronger players work against raising awareness of go with society at large?

Equally as strange - why must these professionals make a living wage only from go? The people who are targets for this program are those who are already dedicating a large amount of their time to the game with no financial return, you would now be supplementing it by providing some. To draw from other activities - my hometown got a minor league hockey team a couple years back. When it came to town, local interest in hockey greatly rose. They aren't playing NHL quality hockey, sure, and every player in the league has to have a day job (I think average salary for the players is ~$15,000). Nevertheless there's a decent turnout at their games, and there is significant interest for local sponsors.

If you take a stronger player who is playing at a 7D+ AGA level and already committing a large amount of time and energy to go, provide them with the resources to take their game to the next level, and allow them to earn some cash on the side with it, I think it sounds like it could be a positive program.

While I am a huge proponent of the USA having a professional go system, evidenced in my earlier post, I do believe a large amount of thought should go into this. There needs to be a structural foundation so things don't dissolve into chaos. There needs to be a formulated plan for getting kids from here to wherever it is they'll go to study. And these trips will undoubtedly cost a pretty penny.

You say the pro's don't need to make a living off a Go, and I can understand that this could be a form of supplemental income for many, but what about the organized body itself? Without some form of revenue, how can it properly operate from year to year?

Another debate is whether or not the community as a whole is large enough to support a professional system. This is debatable. But last year's Go Congress had around 400 or 500 people attend. The United States has an estimated population of around 312 million. So, roughly speaking, 500 members of the total population are familiar with Go on that basis. Before you jump on this, I know there are likely hundreds more Go players in the USA who did not attend, myself being one, but is that number really large enough?

And yet another thing to consider is: Exposure. Exposure is the basis of any system. Will there be pro games on television or will they simply be broadcasted on KGS? Tricky business here. And how to you get the mass majority of people who have no idea what Go is interested? Commercial advertizing? Online advertizing? Print advertizing?

All of these things ultimately need some source of revenue. All of these matters are intertwined in a complex web. To have exposure, you need money, to have money, you need players. And vice versa. Again, I'd love to see something like this, so I'm playing Devil's advocate here, but there are a lot of potential issues. And optimism for optimism's sake is useless.

shapenaji · **#32**

HermanHiddema wrote:

I'm not hostile towards this idea, but I am trying to be realistic. Simply said, I think that it is a bad idea to call players "professionals" if they are weak players who cannot earn a living wage from go.

I applaud the Korean efforts in this respect, but I still don't see what the real difference is with what players like Redmond, Taranu and Dinerchtein have done. They were strong, they went to Asia to study, they received a professional title from one of the Asian pro associations. The only difference here, it seems, is that the Hanguk Kiwon will not award these players a professional title directly, but will recommend that the AGA award that title.

Well, for one, these are not weak players, Vincent Zhuang is one of the folks they're talking about, and he was one of only two players to beat one of the Insei in the friendship match. So, he is strong enough to set out on the insei road. Give him a year in Korea and we'll see if he's still weak.

The difference between this and Redmond/Taranu/Dinerchstein is that commitment to go should not require a commitment to be expatriated.

shapenaji · **#33**

hailthorn011 wrote:

And optimism for optimism's sake is useless.

In the kingdom of no eyes, the man with one eye wins the semeai.

daniel_the_smith · **#34**

shapenaji wrote:

hailthorn011 wrote:

And optimism for optimism's sake is useless.

In the kingdom of no eyes, the man with one eye wins the semeai.

And an eye for an eye turns the whole board into a giant capturing race. Wait, what were we talking about again?

Horibe · **#35**

shapenaji wrote:

[The difference between this and Redmond/Taranu/Dinerchstein is that commitment to go should not require a commitment to be expatriated.

Nor should it require anything so onerous as playing 10 games a year...

jts · **#36**

Mef wrote:

One thing I have yet to understand about those with a negative view on this program is there is a perceived dichotomy.

Why does creating a system to raise the top levels of play in the US stop anyone from building youth programs? How does a kid going to study in Korea for a year prevent sponsors from giving money to tournaments? Why would you think the creation of a for generating stronger players work against raising awareness of go with society at large?

In the past, I have the sense that "Europe needs a professional league" has been a position with a great deal of affinity for these positions: "Europe needs to cultivate its strongest players", "Europe needs to do more for the interests of its strongest players", "Europe needs to give out much more prize money to tournament winners". Perhaps this is a false impression, but if I'm right then perhaps Herman is just counselling caution based on past experience.

Several people here, who are surely better informed than I, seem to think that Korea wants to pay for everything, and nothing that Korea doesn't pay for will be changed. Free lunch, yummy! Who could be against it? It would be churlish to refuse the offer. But I won't be surprised if the time comes in the future when money has to be diverted from other projects to keep an American pro system limping along. And at that point, how could there not be a dilemma? Resources don't grow on trees.

shapenaji · **#37**

jts wrote:

In the past, I have the sense that "Europe needs a professional league" has been a position with a great deal of affinity for these positions: "Europe needs to cultivate its strongest players", "Europe needs to do more for the interests of its strongest players", "Europe needs to give out much more prize money to tournament winners". Perhaps this is a false impression, but if I'm right then perhaps Herman is just counselling caution based on past experience.

Several people here, who are surely better informed than I, seem to think that Korea wants to pay for everything, and nothing that Korea doesn't pay for will be changed. Free lunch, yummy! Who could be against it? It would be churlish to refuse the offer. But I won't be surprised if the time comes in the future when money has to be diverted from other projects to keep an American pro system limping along. And at that point, how could there not be a dilemma? Resources don't grow on trees.

It is harder to raise money and get sponsorship for something that doesn't exist.
If you don't have a business plan with an eye on expansion, there's no way anyone will invest in you.

However, Gordon Castanza told me that there is a sponsor interested already.

shapenaji · **#38**

Horibe wrote:

shapenaji wrote:

[The difference between this and Redmond/Taranu/Dinerchstein is that commitment to go should not require a commitment to be expatriated.

Nor should it require anything so onerous as playing 10 games a year...

I don't understand, are you bringing up the 10 games a year rule? I don't see how it's relevant.

gogameguru · **#39**

I agree with jts. We all love Go. I doubt many of us would be seriously opposed to a pro system in new countries (wherever it is in the world) - just for the sake of opposing it.

It's really a question of where the money comes from and how it's used. If the Koreans are going to pay for everything, as some people are saying, that's awesome.

However, there is still the question of opportunity cost. I think that's what's fundamentally being discussed here. This question could also be applied to other activities that go on in the Western Go world...

This is a very interesting and worthwhile discussion and I'm quite enjoying hearing other people's views on this

. I don't think we should assume that, just because someone questions how things are going to work, that they're opposed to a pro system.

daniel_the_smith · **#40**

shapenaji wrote:

...
However, Gordon Castanza told me that there is a sponsor interested already.

90% of a secret is that there is a secret at all, which is why I haven't been saying anything in this thread. Please keep talking, though. I am listening.

Initiatives for a Professional System in the West

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