It is currently Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:42 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Developing weak AIs in KaTrain
Post #21 Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 8:26 am 
Beginner

Posts: 9
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 2
jlt wrote:
sanderl wrote:
Try 'P:weighted' and see how it feels.


I just played a couple of quick games. In the first one I resigned quickly after losing a group. I won the second game by 18.5. The game felt pretty natural for about 150 moves, but the AI started playing strange moves when it was behind, wasted ko threats although a ko was going on, and didn't see immediate threats at the late endgame.


Yeah wasting ko threats is a very persistent issue. I guess atari/throw-in is fairly high up there in terms of policy and the score loss of ko threats is fairly minimal.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Developing weak AIs in KaTrain
Post #22 Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:43 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 9
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 2
There's some interesting work going on in this github issue.
A contributor developed some calibration for playing a reasonably even game against gnugo and pachi, leading to a new AI option. However, the next step is even more challenging: can we invert this and estimate someone's rank from their moves automatically?
I'd be interesting in hearing if any of you have ideas about this.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Developing weak AIs in KaTrain
Post #23 Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:09 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2199
Location: Germany
Liked others: 8085
Was liked: 906
Rank: OGS DDK again
Universal go server handle: trohde
Just want to note that I just installed KaTrain on my iMac (June 2017, 27" Retina 5K, macOS 10.14, 32 GB RAM), installation was a breeze following your installation instructions, just a few Terminal commands copy/pasted, and your Teaching Game option simply blew me off my feet, this is SO! AWESOME!
Very nice also that I can use it to play against a calibrated version of KataGo, so I can use this very strong AI to play against an opponent who is just a little bit stronger than I am while learning better moves. (Of course I still prefer human opponents for “real” games but as a tool KaTrain is wonderful!)

I immediately decided to sponsor your project (albeit with a small amount only) on https://github.com/sponsors/sanderland, as I think this is an extremely valuable tool for learning.

Before, I hesitated to install KataGo etc. because I was afraid it would be too much fumbling, but KaTrain makes it all very easy.

Screenshot:
Attachment:
83739443_10220673464856795_7731822805852681469_o.jpg
83739443_10220673464856795_7731822805852681469_o.jpg [ 81.58 KiB | Viewed 180 times ]

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS? :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Developing weak AIs in KaTrain
Post #24 Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:44 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1302
Liked others: 108
Was liked: 272
Just out of interest; if you take a weight file from a STRONG neural net and change just some small part of its contents, what will that do to its strength? Is it a sick hack too far?

_________________
North Lecale

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Developing weak AIs in KaTrain
Post #25 Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:35 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2199
Location: Germany
Liked others: 8085
Was liked: 906
Rank: OGS DDK again
Universal go server handle: trohde
Sander,

I’m not sure where the best place is for a support question, so I’m asking it here:

Re: “models”
Attachment:
Screen Shot 2020-06-29 at 18.17.34.jpg
Screen Shot 2020-06-29 at 18.17.34.jpg [ 30.87 KiB | Viewed 129 times ]
I’m a total n00b when it comes to using modern Go AI apps, understanding close to nothing of “weights”, “playouts”, visits, “depth” and “width”, etc.—how do I know which the “best” model for which purpose?

TIA,
Tom

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS? :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Developing weak AIs in KaTrain
Post #26 Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:51 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 530
Liked others: 86
Was liked: 563
Rank: maybe 2d
Here's some guidance on that question (scroll down a little from here to the "Which model/network should I use?"). Anyone should feel free to relay this guidance. You might have to drill down into the links there to see which models match up with which models that katrain is showing you, but the general point is that bigger nets are slower to run but stronger. Often stronger enough to compensate or more than compensate being slower, but depends on hardware.

https://github.com/lightvector/KataGo#other-questions


This post by lightvector was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Developing weak AIs in KaTrain
Post #27 Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:29 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2199
Location: Germany
Liked others: 8085
Was liked: 906
Rank: OGS DDK again
Universal go server handle: trohde
Thanks a lot, @lightvector!

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS? :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Developing weak AIs in KaTrain
Post #28 Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:29 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 357
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 73
Rank: kgs 5 kyu
KGS: Pio2001
Hi,
Just my two cents : after a bot is weakened, it would be a good thing to prevent it to ignore important ataris.

It feels really unnatural and disappointing when you play atari to a huge chain of stones and the bot just doesn't see it. Capture, game over.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group