Thanks for clarifying!

OK, assuming a stone on the 4-4 pt. in one corner, what is your most effective stone placement in an adjacent corner?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

This month I'm 4 - 4 against 6ks and 7 - 2 against 4ks... Looks like it's the other way around. Seems my recipe as white could use some spice.

These are skills that involve fighting at a disadvantage. I do seem to be lacking in these, but unfortunately I don't seem to be very good at learning from my mistakes.



According to AlphaGo it is a stone on the 3-4 point, not facing the black stone

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B AG has 46.8 winrate for Black
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

do like they do in chess: cheat.

you can't ask Her Alfieness, but you can ask Leela, or - even better - Swim.

_________________
i shrink, therefore i swarm

Actually, this is sort of going in the direction I was thinking. Here B is likely to play on the left side of the board, where I already have two stones...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

I dont like this (aka good for white):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

and therefore recommend this for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Another way for black is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Sorry for not being clear.

First, I am talking about you, not AlphaGo. (Edit: corrected.) AlphaGo is good at sabaki and shinogi.

Second, I meant to ask about your stone on the 4-4, not your opponent's. In this case, it seems that AlphaGo as Black likes nirensei. How about you?

Third, I mainly had White in mind. White to play can pretty well force a parallel fuseki by playing on the 4-4 point of the diagonally opposite corner from .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Parallel fuseki
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

What is your most effective play in the top left corner?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Black can easily defeat this plan by playing in the bottom left corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

In fact, when human faces human, Black has good stats with this opening.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

To return to the original question, it is very difficult to follow a "game plan" as white. In fact it is only possible if black allows you to do so.


Therefore my game plan as white is to disturb black's plan and take over the initiative as early as possible. (But you depend on blacks plays and have to wait for your opportunity.)

Ok, so you mean what would be my in the diagram below. I hardly have a preference. I would normally play any of a-c

I like it too.

I don't see any of a - c as being particularly effective. I would generally not choose d as it invites black to expand from his

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

From your answers I would suggest playing nirensei as White, which you can almost always enforce, and then, if makes a keima approach, just play the keima response. OC, you still have to decide how to play against sanrensei, the various Chinese and mini-Chinese positions, etc.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Being unable to speak Go lingua franca, here's my mental image of the game so far (inside means 3rd line and outside means 4th):
People say that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, so one might expect inside to be more valuable than outside. However, here, both players have gone more for outside rather than inside, leaving the neutral holes you can see, so i would be tempted to put white 4 in one of (ie. two of) them, ie. either [top inside, right inside], or [top inside, left inside].

However, the Holy Bull God of Heaven snorts at me, proclaiming that [outside left outside, top outside] E16 (not even on Bill's map) is the way, the truth, and the light.
PS. HRH Alf also says she would herself play D17, but i think that's only to seduce mere mortal Gilgameshes like demigod KJ into thinking they have half a chance.

_________________
i shrink, therefore i swarm

Sorry for the confusion! I edited Bill's diagram, so it was me not him who did not consider playing the whizbang move. Lingua franca? That's for woobs who can't tell their butt from a neutral hole.

Edit: p.s. looking forward to seeing The Drowning Fish trounce Alphie!

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

Nope, those numbers are black's "win rate" so E16 is the worst of the shown choices from white's perspective, and d17, the move humans like too, is AG's best.

my drawing was a poor external representation of my internal mental image - and to make matters even worse, it led me astray in expressing my preferences, partly because i forgot that despite believing a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, i'm not keen on early 3-3s.

this picture is a better expression of what i had in mind; it avoids 1000 words of potentially confusing nomenclature like inside and outside (what Go writers call the inside is geographically on the outer part of the board and vice-versa).
the drawing maps points into squares and vice-versa, and draws (the third and fourth lines of) the 4 corners together to keep it simple. The centre of Go earth is a long way from the outside 4th line, so far that it's not worth thinking about at this early stage, unless your name happens to be Kitani, and maybe not even then.

black and white have already occupied three squares, leaving a few green fields of golden calf opportunity.

One of them is golden calf Alfie's preferred move, indicated by an early image of one of her Mesapotamian pre-incarnations: Ishtar.

The green field sandwiched between the two black ones is scary; it may look green but it could be poisonous.

The two green fields in the top right look like hard work to get anywhere, because of black's existing presence.

Because white already has a presence in the bottom left, the green fields there are for slowcoaches, not high fliers with wings like Ishtar.

_________________
i shrink, therefore i swarm

Give me 400 million smackers and i'll make it happen, by following the well-trodden path of Bio-Treat and Carillion, subcontracting it all out to suckers on 120-day payments which i plan to not pay 90% of, skimming off the top - and the middle - and the bottom - and running away to the Bahamas.

Besides, Swim already rescued Alfie from the jaws of Sedol once - what more proof do you need?!

_________________
i shrink, therefore i swarm

I've been trying the nirensei for a while now, but no change in my current abysmal record as white. Here is a game, comments appreciated.

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

You aren't very successful at nirensei because you played a 3-4!

Just a few opening comments:
- nicely dodged top left
- n17 probably helps him more than it helps you, I worry you will lose sente but your opponent is kind (extra kind as m16 is bad defence).
- o4 nice, c6 also huge.
- 28, yes, play c6 and you get both the huge moves you wanted (or should have!) at 26.
- 30 wowzers! I'd just q4 and say thanks for giving me a solid corner. p8 does have some big picture flexibility to it, but I'd stick to simple and solid until you are high dan. You lost a lot in the corner
- r12 not big area, c6.
- r10, weak shape, how to answer q9 or r11?
- mv 46, tenuki, c6.
- mv 48 q8 connect is fine. big mistake.
- mv 50 small, look at big picture, also p6 is a tesuji to get into centre a bit. you want to separate b (stop centre potential and later attack around m3).
- mv 54 small again, p6 or c6.
- mv56, you played way too much on right side, don't let b make the wall by connecting at q8, or p6 now still recovers a bit, and answer q5 and then b doesn't have a strong group. Left side is way bigger than upper right, you already have an alive stone at r8 (plus p8 jump) at move 39, that's enough. Did you even consider a tenuki in all this time, or were you enjoying the train ride pootling along the right edge you forgot to look out the window?

With the disclaimer that I'm not that much stronger - I'm very uneven anyway (from beating 1d KGS to losing against 5k on IGS on any given day it would appear, I blame it on a sleep schedule and playing environment very much dependent on my toddlers mood - probably 1~2k steady on KGS?). Here's my thoughts!

Note: I used CS in a few spots in the endgame to spot-check my intuition - but from everything I gathered this was your game to lose all the way until the very end. This is an issue I often have as well, where I plummet in the endgame despite having a solid lead throughout the game. I think you played too locally and played in settled areas for far too long - aka playing small - also, you attached in the lower left when you absolutely didn't want to strengthen him like that.