Video A: 2 monkeys

Video B: wrestling

Suppose Mary's true level is about 5 kyu, and Joe's true level is about 3 dan.
If Mary wants to play a pro, it's her choice.
She knows ahead of time someone is pro, and it is she who chooses to pay for the lesson.
If she wants to play someone around her own level, it's her choice.Say Joe has a 5-kyu account, for whatever reasons.
If Mary is paired up with Joe, she sees his 5-kyu account; she does not know his true level is 3 dan.
But Joe does: he knows on this day, his level is still 3 dan, and he can also see her 5-kyu rating.
He now has a choice: to disclose this information, or not.
He can ask her, "I'm really about 3 dan. This 5-kyu rating is not my true level. Would you still like to play me ?"
And let her choose.
If he does not tell her, he is hiding this information and mis-representing himself, to her.
He is not letting her choose. He is choosing for her. In Go, he's forcing himself on her.

If there were no ratings in this world -- like in an Open division --
then everyone knows their opponent's level is like a box of chocolates; and that's fine.

But we do have ratings. And there are people like Joe who repeatedly mis-represent themselves.This is like saying a physiologically normal person jumps into disability wrestling matches --
repeatedly, over and over again, mis-representing himself as disabled and crushing his opponents --
and you tell the disabled wrestlers,
"Hey, just learn something from that guy, or move on. What's the big deal ? "

Yes, we could just watch people jump in line, watch people bully others,
keep our mouth shut, and "move on". What's the big deal ?
Others in this thread have said, what's wrong with sandbagging ?
It's not illegal. Morals, schmorals. A 3 dan hiding behind a 5-kyu rating and crushing his opponents, repeatedly.
Hey, it's just a game, Joe is having fun, what's wrong with that ?

If you don't understand Videos A and B,
if you really don't see the difference between Mary choosing to pay a pro,
versus her getting sandbagged by Joe, well, enjoy your life.

And, why would I want to learn from people like Joe.

I really feel Ed has a point here. A lot of sandbaggers aren't demonstrating awesome superior play. They will deliberately kick you in the insecurity with moves which would never work against someone their own level.

You only really learn what it's like to be taken in by trick moves from such players.

MAYBE you will eventually learn how to punish those tricks, but it will do very little to seriously raise your rank.

I'm serious about my previous comment. I'm not saying that deliberate, intentionally deceptive sandbagging don't exist. To the extent that it does it is unsportsmanlike, but I do think the numbers are exaggerated by players looking in the wrong places to explain their own losses. I've had, by now, hundreds of games reviewed by strong amateurs and pros and not once have I been told, "well, it's okay that you lost this because your opponent is obviously a sandbagger" or something to that effect. Not once. And I'm sure those teachers knew or suspected something was fishy in some cases. But that's not the point. The point is there is always something I could have done better. If you get into your head that your opponent might be a sandbagger then you'll be chasing ghosts for the rest of your life.

Then why does she keep playing? Resign, and move on - play somebody else, around her level.

What you say is all true.

My point is that people who get sandbagged waste time twofold:
1. First they keep continuing the game even long after they realized they've been had... why?
2. And then they keep wasting time and energy getting angry about it, complaining about it, writing posts about it, and whatnot... instead of finding back their balance and having a good game with somebody else. Its not productive, and makes almost as little sense as sandbagging.

But whatever rocks your boat, mate.

PS>
You will not eradicate all evil in the world. Jerks are out there, and so are sandbaggers. Keep playing, keep whining, keep complaining - is playing into their hands. This thread started as a challenge to create a psychological profile of a sandbagger. I feel they are people who not only get a kick out of easy win, but also enjoy seeing you squirm. By making big issue out of it, you are playing right into their hands. I can see how they see back and enjoy making you so angry and causing you to waste hours on whining and complaining. But what can you really do.

You can keep complaining and letting it ruin your day - and this is an interesting psychological study by itself as well.

Bottom line is - sandbaggers happen. It is very unfortunate, but such is life. All in all, its one of the extremely minor nuisances, hardly worth fussing over, imho.

The only real solution, if you are serious about finding one, is found not inside a sandbagger, but inside yourself. Don't let it bother you, and you have already won. Or get upset and you are handing the sandbagger what he wants on a silver platter. That's all there is to it.

I have said similar things about escapers in the past, and I firmly believe it is true for both.

_________________
- Bantari
______________________________________________
WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

(a) Sandbaggers are a waste of time. (paraphrased)(b) People who write about sandbaggers are wasting time. (paraphrased)

(c) So, you promptly wrote almost 500 words (posts 35 & 44).
And that, magically, is neither a waste of time nor hypocritical.


Yea, whatever rocks your boat.

So sandbagging is rape now, Ed?

Next in this series: Should professionals be prosecuted for playing anonymously online?

Straw man, ignored.

Vast majority of reported sandbaggings is either

1) "optimistic 3 kyu" vs. "actual 3 kyu"
2) actual 3 kyu wins by a large margin
3) optimistic 3 kyu gets all unstable and cries foul

or bad reading exposed by brawling accounts (especially on CJK-server). This hardly would be a problem if not for all the people confusing rank - a tool for match-making - with a self-worth-meter.

Edlee, what a great analogy with the example of wrestling. All the post explained clearly the point about sandbaggers. Thanks.

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si no puedes triunfar, muere gloriosamente

I think it's just the level we are at - some of us are good at thing A and terrible at B, but depending on who we play, that becomes one sided one way or another sometimes. 12k, 8k... maybe even all kyu grades. Those can cover a wide spectrum of personal ability at the many facets of the game - over a hundred or two hundred games we reach the same rating, but that doesn't mean our skills are an even match.

I am relatively terrible at close-quarters shape and fighting, so games that get fighty go badly quickly for me against people (for example, Bonobo, who utterly thumped me when we were theoretically three stones different in rank) who are much much better at those things. I can see how someone who'd got to 10k without thinking too hard about that, could accuse him of being a sandbagger after foolishly leaving a weak structure for him to exploit and getting creamed.

Or they could go do some tsumego

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Confucius in the Analects says "even playing go is better than eating chips in front of tv all day." -- kivi

I don’t understand why people want to get into a fight … just like In Real Life.

1. Sandbaggers do exist, and, aside from the annoyance they are to many people, they are destructive to a ranking system (as are heliumbaggers, Abyssinica )
   
   
2. The temptation to believe that a person who is the same rank as me or even weaker and who beats me MUST be a sandbagger does exist as well. I think we then need to learn to cope with the pain of losing a game.

It seems that ego problems are universal


I recommend this:

1. Just don’t sandbag. It’s bad style. And this isn’t addressed towards those whose rank is fleeting (mine for example has been oscillating between 13 and 11k for about a year now), but rather towards those who do it knowingly. Be nice
   
   
2. If you encounter somebody you believe to be a sandbagger, contact a moderator/admin on the server you’re playing on and let them find out. Insulting them or complaining publicly about it won’t help your cause, much less if you mention the names of the people you suspect to be sandbaggers. And be prepared to realize that they perhaps just played better.
   It is not unusual that somebody beats a stronger player every once in a while. Happens to me, just like it happens that people 2-3 ranks weaker beat me.

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?

Most people I've seen complain about sandbaggers are just people who had a bad game. I always find it a bit sad. Best thing to do with sandbaggers is let the ratings system deal with it and move on.

Did you then read any of what you did NOT quote from that my comment?

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?

It seems we've reached a consensus:

The players gonna play, play, play
And the haters gonna hate, hate, hate
Baby I'm just gonna shake, shake, shake
Shake it off

Don't forget: writers gonna write, write, write

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Patience, grasshopper.

Yes and yes.

Why do you think I am hypocritical? Is anything anybody writes here a waste of time to you? Then why do you read anything? Just don't come here, case closed!

What I am writing has positive connotations to me, sharing my experience with people like you, even if you don't really want to listen. Maybe others are more open-minded. In this sense, maybe what I say will help a few people to not be bothered by jerks out there (like escapers and sandbaggers) and thus help them enjoy their games and their lives more. What is hypocritical about that?!? What is wasteful about that? It only looks wasteful and hypocritical to you - but only if you have a closed mind.

On the other hand... If you think that writing about sandbaggers and getting upset about sandbaggers has any positive connotations, knock yourself out. If you think whining how bad sandbaggers are, and how you just lost a game, and how your ratings suffer, and all that - if you think this is constructive and will help anybody enjoy their games and their lives more... what can I say? Go on, do your thing, get it out of your system, the sooner the better.

But think a little (at least a little!) before you accuse others of hypocrisy. Open mind goes a long way.

_________________
- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

It's amazing how the anonymity of the internet can distort one's perception of right and wrong.

Imagine you run a go club and a new player walks in. He says "Hi I just recently started playing Go, and I'm around 15 kyu. Can I get a game with someone?" Your 1d buddy says "Oh hey I just started playing too and I'm 17k. Give me a couple of stones and let's play." Your 1d friend then massacres the 15k. This is how I'd define sandbagging. Is it something you'd like to see happen in your go club? Or would you take steps to prevent it?

Bantari: In general, if someone mistreats you, yes, it's best to look at the big picture, take it as a learning experience, and forgive the other person rather than holding a grudge. That doesn't change the fact that it's entirely legitimate to be upset by sandbagging. It's maybe not the most spiritually enlightened reaction, but it's a perfectly normal one. If someone lies to you, cheats you, betrays you on any level - it's going to bother you. That's part of being human. And it's okay to feel that way.

As an OGS mod, I can say that on OGS at least, intentional sandbagging is not permitted (so the answer to Krama's question is yes). I would classify sandbagging as playing at least 5 stones weaker than your actual rank. At least once a day we spot someone who is deliberately creating multiple DDK accounts to beat up on people 9 stones weaker than them. So yes, there are plenty of sandbaggers out there and they are a significant problem when it comes to developing an accurate ranking system and welcoming new players to Go. Like bonobo said, if you get sandbagged, you need not just shrug it off. Notify a mod and ask them to look into it. You'll help prevent other players from having the same negative experience.

There are some people who complain about losing to a sandbagger who are just upset that they lost, pure and simple, and there's no actual sandbagging involved. But in my experience, there are not many of these complainers, and it should surprise no one that about half of them turn out to be sandbaggers themselves. So Bantari is correct on this point, but it is misapplied in this thread, where I don't see whining and complaining, just observations that sandbagging is bad behavior. Similarly, the sandbagger reports I get are not generally from the victims of sandbaggers, but from observers.

Now, are even games between players of unequal, but accurately reported strength good? Yes, they're great! There are also a lot of these on OGS (the server I am most familiar with), and they work out well for everyone. I find that people learn a lot more from a game in which they know they're getting crushed by someone much stronger, than from games where they think they're getting crushed by someone their own strength against whom they should be doing better, and come away confused and discouraged. EdLee's post illustrates this point far better than anything I could write.

In response to the original question, I think the motivation for sandbagging is pretty simple. You feel discouraged and helpless regarding some aspect of your life, and miss the positive feeling of being in control and powerful. By disguising yourself as weak, in an area where you're actually strong, when you win it's like you're overcoming the feeling of weakness. As a consequence of ignoring reality, you also mislead someone else. The fact is that none of us are in control and all of us are helpless on some level. Being okay with that means being okay with playing at your own strength and losing half the time, and is therefore a big factor in enjoying Go.

The main reason to sandbag is: Winning makes you feel good.

The internet is an (more or less) anonymous place, and most people don't give a shiт about their opponents.

You've got to wonder if many people aren't simply keeping their inner incivility carefully hidden for fear of social repercussions.

I'm pretty anonymous in most games, and yet I never feel the need to go out of my way to ruin someone's day.

I could do atrocious things, without real chance of any repercussions, and yet ...

I wouldn't compare Go to e.g. wrestling since, even if I lose a big dragon in a game, I do not need visiting a hospital afterwards. That may sound trivial but IMHO is a substantial difference. Furthermore, a big loss is even possible if both ranks are approximately the same, which especially holds for lower ranks such as mine. If in doubt, it sometimes helps to have a look on the player's profile afterwards - e.g. on OGS I recently lost quite clearly to a "9-10k" player in a 9x9 game and have afterwards noticed that he had a win rate of more than 90% and tends to win even against 3k players .

On the other hand I understand that sandbagging is an annoyance, especially if you want maintaining a consistent rating system. From http://senseis.xmp.net/?Sh%2Frankcomparison can be e.g. seen that 1-3k on KGS corresponds to 1-12k on WBaduk which seems rather ridiculous. However in that special case this could also reflect the fact that in Asia - besides from total beginners - there are rarely any active players below 1d.

Anyway, I couldn't understand the point of sandbagging at all - I would constantly have the fear of becoming weak by myself.