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Are big and urgent mostly the same thing?
Yes 13%  13%  [ 6 ]
No 76%  76%  [ 35 ]
Not Sure 11%  11%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 46
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 Post subject: Re: Are big and urgent effectively the same thing?
Post #41 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:53 pm 
Tengen

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RobertJasiek wrote:
The Western definitions, with or without referring to current numbers, can be applied dynamically because they should be reapplied after every move of the game and every move of every variation.
Isn't this just an argument that any static definition is dynamic because it can be reapplied?

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Post #42 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:52 pm 
Honinbo
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John Fairbairn wrote:
大意...referring...to points of "great significance".
John, I like your post, but my understanding of 大意 is
(adj.) careless/reckless;
(n.) general/main idea (synopsis);
but not great significance -- perhaps you're thinking of another term?

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Post #43 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:15 pm 
Judan

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hyperpape wrote:
Isn't this just an argument that any static definition is dynamic because it can be reapplied?


In fact it is how nouns and more specifically terms are used in any language.

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Post #44 Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:36 am 
Tengen

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I like my distinctions, am I'm keeping this one.

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Post #45 Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:29 am 
Oza

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Quote:
John, I like your post, but my understanding of 大意 is
(adj.) careless/reckless;
(n.) general/main idea (synopsis);
but not great significance -- perhaps you're thinking of another term?


No, I'm thinking of the right term, but in classical Chinese. E.g. see the old Bu Gu Bian commentaries on Huang Longshi's old games, although I admit it's not a 100% fit - which is why modern Chinese uses the Japanese term.

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 Post subject: Re: Are big and urgent effectively the same thing?
Post #46 Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:04 pm 
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Some thread necromancy!

I find this discussion funny, in some ways. There seems to exist some desperate need to precisely define things that probably are freaking hard to actually define precisely but trivially differentiated between by simple intuition.

My own thoughts come via Starcraft: Yes, destroying an opponent's expansion is definitely BIG, but it just isn't urgent. Killing that dropship that's about to deliver death to your mineral line is urgent. It must be done NOW. The expansion should die ASAP, but it can afford to wait a bit.

In Go terms, think about plays in fighting sequences where you will lose the fight if you divert attention elsewhere, but so will your opponent. The fight is urgent, while that nice territory grab is just big. Fight first, grab territory later. Another simple example of something urgent would be the response to a forcing move. It's often not big at all, but something that simply has to be done immediately or the opponent's probe would turn into some raging demon from hell.

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Post #47 Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:57 pm 
Oza
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Zombie wrote:
There seems to exist some desperate need to precisely define things that probably are freaking hard to actually define precisely but trivially differentiated between by simple intuition.


I believe you mentioned in your introductory post that you don't play go. But if you can identify big and urgent points by simple intuition, I think you should definitely start playing; you have natural talent. Maybe you've been possessed by a go-playing spirit.


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Post #48 Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:53 am 
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Taking two shots.

Shot one -

"Bigness" is simply a measure of size

"Urgent" is size plus consequences.

If something is 'big" enough, it becomes urgent.

Urgent is bigger than big, if the consequences of ignoring it/failing to play it are bigger than the simply big choice.

Shot two - each move has elements of both attributes. A moves bigness is its immediate value, while its urgency is its impact the rest of the board not merely the score. Almost all moves worth playing have elements of both. A big enough impact on the score makes a big move urgent, a move which both players need, at that precise moment becomes massively urgent, even if the value of the exchange is one point.

FWIW

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