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On average, how many of your moves do you believe a professional would classify as "bad"?
1-5 4%  4%  [ 2 ]
6-10 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
11-20 16%  16%  [ 8 ]
21-30 14%  14%  [ 7 ]
31-50 14%  14%  [ 7 ]
51-75 10%  10%  [ 5 ]
76-100 10%  10%  [ 5 ]
100-150 12%  12%  [ 6 ]
151-200 12%  12%  [ 6 ]
All 8%  8%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 50
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 Post subject: Re: Number of wrong moves
Post #41 Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:30 am 
Tengen

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Bill Spight wrote:
In part it depends upon what you mean by perfect play. It is not at all unusual for a pro to choose an inferior play in the endgame that does not end up costing the game, or costing a point.
What do you mean by this? Inferior in the sense that it would cost a point with the proper response, or inferior in the sense that it loses a fraction of a point, but that doesn't actually make one points worth of difference?

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In part it depends upon time limits. In the late 19th century top level pros played nearly flawless endgames, in the sense of not giving up a point. In the early 20th century, after the introduction of time limits, top level pros rarely gave up a point with plays that gained less than 3 points. With today's quick time limits, even top level pros give up points to perfect play fairly late in the game.
Interesting. Do today's quick time limits include the Japanese 8 hour matches, the 3 hour matches, or just the shorter games?

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 Post subject: Re: Number of wrong moves
Post #42 Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:59 am 
Honinbo

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hyperpape wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
In part it depends upon what you mean by perfect play. It is not at all unusual for a pro to choose an inferior play in the endgame that does not end up costing the game, or costing a point.
What do you mean by this? Inferior in the sense that it would cost a point with the proper response, or inferior in the sense that it loses a fraction of a point, but that doesn't actually make one points worth of difference?


I mean inferior play, no matter how slight the theoretical cost.


Quote:
Quote:
In part it depends upon time limits. In the late 19th century top level pros played nearly flawless endgames, in the sense of not giving up a point. In the early 20th century, after the introduction of time limits, top level pros rarely gave up a point with plays that gained less than 3 points. With today's quick time limits, even top level pros give up points to perfect play fairly late in the game.
Interesting. Do today's quick time limits include the Japanese 8 hour matches, the 3 hour matches, or just the shorter games?


I had one day games in mind. :)

I went looking and found an inaccuracy in the first game I played through, by one of the world's top players. If it made a difference, he would very probably have made the correct play, but I have found similar errors when it mattered, by top players.



Move 231.

Now, to demonstrate that the other move dominates (except in some ko situations), here is the difference game.



The first four plays set up the difference game.

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