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Offline MJK
 Post subject: New Move
Post #1 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:57 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 94
Location: Amsterdam, NL
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Was liked: 63
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Any thoughts?

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Offline DrStraw
 Post subject: Re: New Move
Post #2 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:59 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2180
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
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Rank: AGA 5d
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Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
Yes, but I don't think I should publish them on a family forum. :lol:

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Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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Offline MJK
 Post subject: Re: New Move
Post #3 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:04 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 94
Location: Amsterdam, NL
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Was liked: 63
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/41563
The variation which appeared in the game viewable via the link above seems to be better for white according to some professionals.

Here is one possible variation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . O 5 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 8 . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Solomon
 Post subject: Re: New Move
Post #4 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:31 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

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Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
It looks pretty stup- [see the link to pro game] -endous, perhaps a new joseki in the making.

This post by Solomon was liked by: Splatted
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: New Move
Post #5 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:52 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6725
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KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
It's an extravagant move, I believe Joanne Missingham was the first to play it a couple of years ago. The proverb "When in doubt, tenuki" is handy. It is on the 2nd line after all.
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Offline moyoaji
 Post subject: Re: New Move
Post #6 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:53 pm 
Lives in sente
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Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
I don't like black's reply in the game. Is there a reason black had to back off and couldn't play like this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


I can't imagine that Lee Changho would back off without reading that this move was bad...

Variations I can see:
Perhaps black didn't want white to steal the corner?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . O 3 7 . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . 6 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Maybe he read that white would get a wall on the bottom to work with his other corner?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm3 :w13: at 'a'
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O 2 . . |
$$ , . . . a . 3 4 . . |
$$ . . . X . 5 X O 9 . |
$$ . . . . . 7 6 8 0 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Or maybe black didn't want to induce white to injure his corner stone?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 8 . X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . 9 . O 4 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 7 5 . . |
$$ . . . X . 6 X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Uberdude wrote:
It's an extravagant move, I believe Joanne Missingham was the first to play it a couple of years ago. The proverb "When in doubt, tenuki" is handy. It is on the 2nd line after all.

There is also a proverb that says you should always respond to an attachment.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: New Move
Post #7 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:56 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6725
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
@moyoaji:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . O 3 . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . X . 5 X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


If white gets moves around 3 in sente 5 works a lot better and you can munch yourself a chunky corner. (in some variations you can hane at 2-2 and tombstone squeeze).

P.S. I'm not saying tenuki is best, but if someone plays this move against you in a quick game and you want some guidance how to do ok then thinking of that proverb and playing tenuki and aiming for a trade where you get the corner and they get the pincer stone is an easy way to not epic fail.

P.P.S. There's some similarity with this other strange 2nd line attachment that's also tricky (but not necessarily a bad trick in that you can do ok if they answer correctly, Su Yang 6d says he's not sure of the best answer); 4, whilst locally breaking white's shape, is falling for the bait and giving white a big corner for not enough in return. 4 as hane at 6 and take the ponnuki is probably best.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 8 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 4 6 . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 5 7 . |
$$ . . . 9 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


P.P.P.S
moyoaji wrote:
There is also a proverb that says you should always respond to an attachment.

Black didn't respond to white's attach at 3-3 :)


Last edited by Uberdude on Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: New Move
Post #8 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:04 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6725
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Joanne Missingham (Hei Jiajia) using it in 2010, the first time I saw it.



Attachments:
3qsh10.sgf [1.07 KiB]
Downloaded 576 times
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Offline Fedya
 Post subject: Re: New Move
Post #9 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:05 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 603
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Was liked: 139
Rank: 6-7k KGS
Quote:
Any thoughts?

What was wrong with the old moves?
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: New Move
Post #10 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:27 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6725
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Fedya wrote:
Quote:
Any thoughts?

What was wrong with the old moves?


Boring.

More seriously, in JM's game I think this standard joseki may be globally good for black (and some may even say locally). I usually like that corner though...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Black content.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 3 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Also black can choose to play 4 at 5 and then if white pincers r7 at r9 black can stubbornly cut and fight with the iron pillar at a.
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Offline moyoaji
 Post subject: Re: New Move
Post #11 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:57 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Uberdude wrote:
If white gets moves around 3 in sente 5 works a lot better and you can munch yourself a chunky corner. (in some variations you can hane at 2-2 and tombstone squeeze).

Interesting. I had not considered this move.

Uberdude wrote:
Black didn't respond to white's attach at 3-3 :)

Yes black didn't hane or extend, but black did respond. He made a two space extension to help his stone. Black's move was not a tenuki - it was a local response.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Offline DrStraw
 Post subject: Re: New Move
Post #12 Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:17 am 
Oza

Posts: 2180
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
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GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
Uberdude wrote:
Joanne Missingham (Hei Jiajia) using it in 2010, the first time I saw it.


Wow! If I had seen that game in isolation I think I may have thought it was a couple of weak amateurs! It's all over the place.

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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