Life In 19x19
http://www.lifein19x19.com/

proverbs - original language
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=10208		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  iam3o5am [ Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:53 am ]
Post subject:  proverbs - original language
Hello all,
I've often seen the proverb "Lose your first 50/100 games as quickly as possible". I am wondering if anyone knows whether or not this saying exists in Japanese or Chinese (and, of course, not just a translation back to those languages). I am curious to know its original form.

Also, I've run into the following proverb in Japanese, and just wondering about its meaning and interpretation. Thank you:
碁に勝って勝負に負ける.
Author:  EdLee [ Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
iam3o5am wrote:
碁に勝って勝負に負ける.
Google translate is nice for at least the romanji: go ni katte shōbu ni makeru
Perhaps: In Go (碁に), to win (勝って), lose the match (勝負に 負ける).
Other people can do better.

I never liked the proverb, so I prefer this variation for beginners: Finish 100 games asap.

Curious to know the origins, though.
Author:  Abyssinica [ Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: proverbs - original language
I didn't post because the only meaning of 勝負 I knew was "Win or lose", but it definitly makes more sense as "Win at go, Lose the match." Maybe add "then" before lose because て and stuff.
Author:  EdLee [ Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Abyssinica wrote:
I didn't post because the only meaning of 勝負 I knew was "Win or lose",
Taken individually, 勝 = win, 負 = lose;
but together, one meaning of 勝負 is shōbu, a match/game.
Another meaning is as you said, "victory or defeat".

Perhaps: To win in Go, lose the match.
Author:  Abyssinica [ Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: proverbs - original language
But then wouldn't that be 碁に勝つには勝負に負けて or 碁に勝つように勝負に負けて?

I haven't touched this language since October so everything I say should be taken with a pinch of salt. Or two. Or three.
Author:  Rowen [ Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: proverbs - original language
Abyssinica wrote:
But then wouldn't that be 碁に勝つには勝負に負けて or 碁に勝つように勝負に負けて?

I haven't touched this language since October so everything I say should be taken with a pinch of salt. Or two. Or three.


Your doing better than me. I'm trying to learn the language and can't fathom being able to read the above sentence. Although I can pick out the kana so I'm getting somewhere - slowly, but somewhere all the same.
Author:  shapenaji [ Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
[

I never liked the proverb, so I prefer this variation for beginners: Finish 100 games asap.

Curious to know the origins, though.


I like this proverb actually. Speaks to the the dichotomy between playing to learn and playing to win. If you're playing to learn, you should eventually push yourself over the edge and lose, if you're playing to win, you'll eventually start playing safe to ensure the victory.
Author:  Bantari [ Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
shapenaji wrote:
EdLee wrote:
[

I never liked the proverb, so I prefer this variation for beginners: Finish 100 games asap.

Curious to know the origins, though.


I like this proverb actually. Speaks to the the dichotomy between playing to learn and playing to win. If you're playing to learn, you should eventually push yourself over the edge and lose, if you're playing to win, you'll eventually start playing safe to ensure the victory.

When you play your first 50/100 game,s is it more important to win or to learn?
Author:  shapenaji [ Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
Quote:
When you play your first 50/100 game,s is it more important to win or to learn?


Well, you can't give up on winning entirely, otherwise you have no incentive to learn. So I'd say you should focus more on playing to learn, but take the wins where you can get them. (Especially if you're destroying your opponent, you're not going to learn much from trying to continue to break apart an already broken position)
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: proverbs - original language
Quote:
Also, I've run into the following proverb in Japanese, and just wondering about its meaning and interpretation. Thank you:
碁に勝って勝負に負ける.


"Win the go but lose the game." It's tempting to think this may be like our "win the battle lose the war", but it doesn't quite overlap as Japanese usage is less about the guile of a superior long-term commander and more about the whiners in those cases where a player claims to be ahead throughout most of the game but loses through a late blunder or whatever. The saying ("proverb" is overstating it) is simply a reminder to grasp that a loss is a loss, however you dress it up.
Author:  Aidoneus [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: proverbs - original language
John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
Also, I've run into the following proverb in Japanese, and just wondering about its meaning and interpretation. Thank you:
碁に勝って勝負に負ける.


"Win the go but lose the game." It's tempting to think this may be like our "win the battle lose the war", but it doesn't quite overlap as Japanese usage is less about the guile of a superior long-term commander and more about the whiners in those cases where a player claims to be ahead throughout most of the game but loses through a late blunder or whatever. The saying ("proverb" is overstating it) is simply a reminder to grasp that a loss is a loss, however you dress it up.


Ah, the proverbial "I should've won!" :lol:
Author:  iam3o5am [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: proverbs - original language
Thanks Mr. Fairbairn for your input! All that remains to my original post here is whether or not the 'lose 50/100 games as quickly as possible' is some amateur idea that crept into Senseis Library, or does it exist in some original Japanese/Chinese form from some time ago?

Thanks of course to everyone else as well. I was right there too, thinking the Japanese text was some sort of 'lose the battle, win the war' equivalent. Its good to see it in the proper light now.
Author:  cuetzpalin [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: proverbs - original language
I like the "lose 50 games" proverb and I always tell it to the people I teach how to play.

I always explain the meaning as:
-Don't get depressed at a lost game, as losing is part of learning.
- Don't expect to always win, for as in life, losing is part of the game
- Play as often as possible when you are new to go.
- You learn more of a lost game.
- Play any number of games you need to play until you've lost 50 or 100 (ie doesn't mean to lose on purpose)
Author:  gowan [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: proverbs - original language
I think the "lose 50 games" should be amended by adding lose 50 games in which you pay attention and think about your moves. If you just throw stones around and don't pay attention to what happens you'll never get any better. If you pay attention and think about your moves (have goals and plans) you'll learn and probably improve around 10 to 15 ranks. It also should reassure beginners that they are going to lose a lot of games in the "getting started" phase. We do see a lot of posts from people who are upset about losing a lot.
Author:  Abyssinica [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: proverbs - original language
Instead of having there being a win and a loss, there should be a first and second place. That way, no one loses!
Author:  StlenVlr [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: proverbs - original language
gowan wrote:
I think the "lose 50 games" should be amended by adding lose 50 games in which you pay attention and think about your moves. If you just throw stones around and don't pay attention to what happens you'll never get any better. If you pay attention and think about your moves (have goals and plans) you'll learn and probably improve around 10 to 15 ranks. It also should reassure beginners that they are going to lose a lot of games in the "getting started" phase. We do see a lot of posts from people who are upset about losing a lot.


I don't think humans can play a game they are genuinely interested in and not try their utmost to win. I just don't think human psychology allows that. As such, I'm not really convinced that this amend is necessary. I'd say it's a far more common problem that they get anxious about all the considerations involved and just feel they're not playing well enough and give up on the game because they're too bad at it. The proverb that encourages losing is a pretty good way to prevent people from getting depressed over the fact that they are going to lose despite their best efforts.

Say, I lost some 100 games in row when I started. I then won a couple, my 10th win bringing me to 14k rating. In other words, I have only won 9 games while I was 15kyu or below. As such, I'm thinking this proverb is pretty good at preventing you from just thinking you're too bad and giving up.
Author:  cuetzpalin [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: proverbs - original language
gowan wrote:
I think the "lose 50 games" should be amended by adding lose 50 games in which you pay attention and think about your moves. If you just throw stones around and don't pay attention to what happens you'll never get any better. If you pay attention and think about your moves (have goals and plans) you'll learn and probably improve around 10 to 15 ranks. It also should reassure beginners that they are going to lose a lot of games in the "getting started" phase. We do see a lot of posts from people who are upset about losing a lot.


If you need to be told that...
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/