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 Post subject: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #1 Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:22 am 
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I remember Someone saying that Lee Sedol 9p would like to play in a 8-hour internatiol tournament or so.
But An Youngill said that it would be very difficult for a tournament like that to be organisd these days.

So I wonder, how many Go tournaments are in peoples mind that seem to impossible to do, but would be really nice? Weather it's because it's more convulatd than the Olleh KT Cup, (as in my case) or that it would be too hard to organise, or you could even just put idea's that you have been wondering, "why it hasn't been done before?". It doesn't matter how silly it sounds :D that's why I made this topic.

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 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #2 Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:06 pm 
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For example, hers's an impossible silly-sounding Hayago tournament blueprint: Too hard to follow and it would be hard to gather the required participants, and other reasons...

Each reigon would send an even number of male and female players, sending in total 36 participants--

Japan: 4
Korea: 4
China: 4
Africa: 6*
S America: 6
Oceania: 4*
Europe: 6
Rest of Asia^: 6
N America: 6

*Only because Oceania consists of a very small amount of countries, and when you consider that sometimes Oceania is not even considered a seperate Continent in a geogaphical sense, 4 people means more players in ratio of total poulation than any of the other continents.

^Because it seems that the strongest players (top pros) are heavily concentrated in Korea and China.

The total player number is raised to 40 by inviting 4 "notable public figures" (in other words, famous people or VIP's XD who cares if their 30 kyu, it would still mke the tournament somewhat noticeable in the country of whosoever the famous person is from) and the 40 players are sorted into 8 groups of 5-- the grop stage would be a 5-player round-robin played in one day (time limits 10m and then 3x10s per move afterwards) with the two highest scoing players proceeding from each group.

Okay,the 16 players compte in what I call a "triple elimination" tounament-- but not a pure one though. If you manage to read this while keeping you're brain intact, you deserve an award.

A R2 R3 R4 R5

1 1 1 1 1
2
3 2
4
5 3 2
6
7 4
8
9 5 3 2
10
11 6
12
13 7 4
14
15 8
16

Numbers of players in 2nd and 3rd draw for each round--
1 2 3 4 5

+8+4+2+1
B 8 8 6*5*4 2 1
-4-4-2-1-2-1

+4+4+2+1+2+1
C 8 6^ 8 4 2 1
-4-2 -4


*two byes are given so only two are eliminated, and then in the next round, only one game is played

^same reason as above.

Part 2 coming next.

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 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #3 Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:07 pm 
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Why would it be so hard? It has been done many times in Japan.

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 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #4 Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:09 pm 
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Bangneki tournament with the best of the best. 1 bang (10 pts. of territory) = $10,000, manbang/resign = $100,000.


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 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #5 Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:15 pm 
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Araban wrote:
Bangneki tournament with the best of the best. 1 bang (10 pts. of territory) = $10,000, manbang/resign = $100,000.

This is an interesting idea. Given the current economics of Go, presumably only players with separate sponsors willing to put up the manbang $100K could enter. Sponsorship changes from the tournament to the individual players. What structure would work best, a traditional knock-out table? In that case it's just your tough luck if you are paired against Lee Sedol in the first-round drawing. Alternatively is there some sort of ladder structure with a challenge-accept mechanism that could produce more interesting matches in early rounds? Or Ryusei-sen style win and continue leagues leading up to a final?

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 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #6 Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:29 pm 
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ez4u wrote:
Araban wrote:
Bangneki tournament with the best of the best. 1 bang (10 pts. of territory) = $10,000, manbang/resign = $100,000.

This is an interesting idea. Given the current economics of Go, presumably only players with separate sponsors willing to put up the manbang $100K could enter. Sponsorship changes from the tournament to the individual players. What structure would work best, a traditional knock-out table? In that case it's just your tough luck if you are paired against Lee Sedol in the first-round drawing. Alternatively is there some sort of ladder structure with a challenge-accept mechanism that could produce more interesting matches in early rounds? Or Ryusei-sen style win and continue leagues leading up to a final?


What I would love to see is a Bangneki/Hahn styled city league. 7 player roster for 5 boards. Games are played on consecutive days, and the player on the roster who plays on a given day need not be announced until 5 minutes before the game. A player may not play in more than one game in a series. Players may be substituted mid game, but once they leave they are done (for the series).


Watching how board 3 changes their style based on board 1's result could be fascinating. Would it be worth it to have an endgame specialist if the series comes down to a close game? Perhaps a tsumego expert for once you hit a tricky situation. Maybe a player who excels in byo-yomi?

It could give us a chance to see pros who might have niche skills that can't quite put it all together to get a title.


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 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #7 Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:16 am 
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DrStraw wrote:
Why would it be so hard? It has been done many times in Japan.


Really? Well, as far as I know, the SAWMG (in china) once used a double elimination system in the , but there where understandably two separate draws (male&female). I don't know of any international pro/ama tournament in Japan.

This would be a triple-elimination, but the reasons why I thought it might be difficult to organise is because was not sure that there would be enough prize money for any pros to be interested, but thinking about it again, pros could obviously participate in a more good-will fashion.

I think that it's just that I believe it's an obvious way to improve Baduk wordlwide, and I can't see why it hasn't been done before-- currently, there is no tournament where the top players from Africa, N&S America, Oceania and Europe to play against the top female players, for example. I'm not confident that the top female players could sustain an extremly high winning percentage against top American or European players.

I forgot to mention that at least one player from each region should be under 20.

What you'd have combined into one is basically (put in order of average strength of the top 10 players of each region)--

Top Chinese players (maybe)
Top Korean Players (maybe)
Top Japanese players (maybe)
Top Youth Chinese players (maybe)
Top Youth Korean Players (maybe)
Top Youth Japanese players (maybe)
Top Female Chinese players (maybe)
Top Female Korean Players (maybe)
Top Asian players (excluding CJK)
Top Youth Asian Players (excluding CJK)
Top Female Japanese players (maybe)
Top N American players
Top Female Asian Players (excluding CJK)
Top European players
Top S American players
Top Oceania Players
Top African Players
Top Female N American players
Top Female European Players
Top Female S American players
Top Female African players

I don't know how to gather all of the participants XD

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 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #8 Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:31 pm 
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1 to 10, Jane, King, Queen, and 6 jokers with numeric value zero for numbers of players that are not multiples of 13.

Mind in magenta/purple
Soul (Spades) in blue
Sprit in cyan
Heart (Hearts) in red
Life (Clubs) in green
Wealth (Diamonds) in yellow

Korea
the Supreme Mind
In year 1 preliminaries A, B and C. In year 2 Final preliminaries and main tournament. Preliminaries are never done in one go, but separated into different days for each qualification slot. Qualifying through a stage seeds you into it next holding.

the Soul Sphere

Japan
the Fighting Spirit
Invitational, by country origin rather than pro association: Seoul-controlled Korea 8, Pyongyang-controlled Korea 2, Taipei-controlled part of China 8, Beijing-controlled part of China 2, Japan 12, Europe 6, Americas 6, Oceania 2, 8 top amateurs worldwide then top 16 female players each from Korea, including one from the north, Japan, Taipei-controlled China, Beijing-controlled china. Eight 8-player swisses are held on 8 different days. Then 16 2-player swiss on 16 different days, then the last game on 32 different days.

the Heart Hand

China
Taipei-controlled section of China: the Life Lens
32 Top female players with 16 lifetime U15 players (Chinese style), 16 lifetime O45 players (Korean style), with lifetime being age measured from estimated conception (generally biologically more accurate than age).

Beijing-controlled section of China: the Wealth Window
An expensive international tournament based in the Beijing-controlled section of China open equally to amateurs and pros (very Chinese style)

In Korea respect for the old seems to be based on expecting high ability, and in this extends even at old age. On the other hand, it's only in china that I saw the sensible rule employed where the age cut off. It seems only the Chinese. Some might say the New Ryuusei is not really fully Japanese genophenic and cultural style, and what about the Teikei? However the dynamic of the identity Kansai Kiin (set up initially as an 'alternative', or less euphamistically, opposition ;-) , naturally sets itself up to be more creative in this regard due to alternative). In these cases I think the Kansai Kiin copied Korea and China respectively.
Interestingly I'm half part of an ethnic group with some of the cultural genophics that Korea and especially china has much in common. Although I'm genophenically a lot more Japanese, strange :scratch: I've even identified a gene in that half that I've only ever seen in Japan, although I've found genes normally asian in the other half too, weird.

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 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #9 Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:38 am 
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This is likely the final major draft of the tournaments I'd like to see.

Japan, the Fighting Spirit, Korea, the Supreme Mind, in Taipei-controlled China, the Wealth Window, but all three tournament are run exactly the same way but just use the ruleset in each country.

32 8-round two-day swiss preliminaries with a time limit of 3 hours absolute per game, held consecutively for a total of 64 days, then a main tournament of 32 with time limit of 6 hours absolute per and 9 hours absolute for the semi-finals and final.
Winner: $250,000
Runner-Up: $128,000
two other Semifinalists: $64,000
four other Quarterfinalist: $32,000
eight other Octofinalists: $16,000
sixteen other Main Tournament entrants: $8,000
And so on down to the winners of round one of the preliminaries, $128.
Special tournaments, each with $64,000 winner and the same split for places 2, 3-4, 5-8, etc.:
Japan: the Heart Hand Taipei-controlled China 16 Japan 16 Europe 8 Americas 8 Top Amateurs 8 Top non-KJC Amateurs 8 Top female players 32 Top Female Japanese Players 16 Top Female Taipei-controlled China Players 16, 7 round swiss.
Korea: the Seoule Sphere Korea, Taipei-controlled China, Beijing-controlled China, Korea, Japan, Europe, Americas, each 8 players, top 16 Female players, 6 round swiss.
The Life Lens, held twice a year since young people's strength changes very quickly. Taipei-controlled China, Beijing-controlled China, Japan, Korea each send two players under 15, two players over 45, and two female players, Knockout.

In total all these tournaments will probably cost around $2,000,000 a year. I don't have that kind of money.

note: When I was talking about a gene I'd ever only seen in Japan, I meant not a gene in myself but a gene I had found in two relatives

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 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #10 Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:59 am 
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I would like to see a tournament where the winners of all top tournament of a year compete. That might be (depending on the definition) less than 8 players. Then we round up to 8 players by adding the best from the world ranking list or giving places to one pro from Europe and America. The 8 players then play a round robin with reasonable thinking time. If there are two or more players with the same number of points at the end there will be a playoff with short thinking time.
Such a tournament would be a true world championship!


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 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #11 Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:36 pm 
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theo wrote:
I would like to see a tournament where the winners of all top tournament of a year compete. That might be (depending on the definition) less than 8 players. Then we round up to 8 players by adding the best from the world ranking list or giving places to one pro from Europe and America. The 8 players then play a round robin with reasonable thinking time. If there are two or more players with the same number of points at the end there will be a playoff with short thinking time.
Such a tournament would be a true world championship!


The winners of the top tournaments would already be more than 8 players. That would be very similar to the tournament of Winners in Japan, although they include the winners of the top female tournaments, which makes wayyy more sense than tagging on some random westerner for absolutely no good reason. Of course if the world's top amateurs, top female pros, top Taiwanese pros and top Japanese pros (to give them a chance to play in the tournament if we're going to give westerners a chance) and top non-KJC amateurs were in a mixed preliminary with Europeans and Americans and a westerner STILL beat them all to get a place, THEN it would be justified.

I don't get the obsession with wanting western pros to want to be seeded with top Korean and Chinese pros when we have top Taiwanese and Japanese, and before that top female pros, and before that top female Japanese. Three entire levels of play before you even get to that stage. So it makes me very annoyed when it comes to international tournaments just randomly seeding westerners with top pros. It seems absurd, not achieving much but an ego trip. Why not play not focus on beating top female pros who are equally notable but closer to your level? So I have a grand total of zero interest in Western players competing at the top two rungs if they're not competing at the bottom two rungs. It simply becomes a way to distract us from what they obviously should be doing.

If were to include European and American pros in an international, it would only, then when they get stronger after a few decades Taiwanese and Japanese pros, then after a few decades more maybe they can be seeded against top pros. In, that very reason would imply that it would best to focus and just tone the ego down a bit--moreso the delusional western fans than the western pros themselves--forgot about top pros and see if they can not embarrass themselves against the top female players. When European players are scoring 50% against the top female pros, which might happen in say 2040 the earliest if i'm being optimistic, then I wouldn't think it's hubristic shallowness on the part of international tournament organisers to pair them against top pros under the pretence of promoting go (if I sound like a grumpy brat, I am one)!

When you have people deliberately avoiding the above it does the exact opposite of promoting go (therefore the common practice has exasperated me somewhat. If people are going to be undercover sexist/ageist/prejudiced in some sort of way at least don't do so to your own disadvantage (like the palm oil origin problem*), haha :lol: (I mean Rui Naiwai not playing in Open Japanese tournaments has absolutely nothing to do with Japanese female pros :) of course it's absolutely their right and prerogative to allow to play who they want but it's taken 25 years for Japan to recover)), which makes wayyy more sense than including random westerners in what's supposed to be a best of the best league. This is what I've been trying to indirectly say, for 9 years, although in much more polite terms when i was 14, haha. I'm more direct now since I'm now more of a moron and I'm not sure I've all the time in the world. If Europeans and Americans do play top Asians, it would only be if they pass through these preliminary stages first, and that would do wayyy more for the promotion of go than what they do now. It basically seems like western pros are to humour the top pros if we're not wasting their time. On the other hand, if the western pro first came through a preliminary especially because it seemed like the player earned their place among different levels of Asian pros before finally getting to play against top pros, so it actually makes the western pro seem more legitimate, garnering further interest, since he competed against Asian pros even if it was female or Japanese/Taiwanese pros. I mean a lot more interest than if it seems he was just donated a place. I remember it being mentioned that the economic system in the speculative sphere encourages a lot of money to accumulate to the few people who would have the worst investment ideas. Forgive me for using a rather rude analogy as it's not quite what's happening here but relate it in the broadest sense!

Think about it like this. If one thinks it would be nice if the western pros could compete against top Japanese and Taiwanese pros, but ignore the fact fact that they could play top female pros now or actually compete with top female Japanese or Taiwanese pros if we would bother to let them do so, then we don't 'deserve' to have western pros reach the level to compete with Japanese and Taiwanese pros since we deliberately throw away our opportunities for the sake of being randomly . . . sexist :scratch:? Throwing away opportunities this way seems to be a common pattern in modern society.

Okay, in china the King/Queen of the new stars is U16 for boys and U18 for girls, this is VERY logical (although youth ANYTHING should be held twice a year). In Korea, female are paired, although unlike in China this logical isn't extended as much to U15 players. It's not logical because these are due to culture, but I hate to break it but those each alone, each culture alone are nowhere near competent enough to make non-go players take us seriously, sorry. I mean you'll probably get strange looks from a Korean, if you thought the GG Auction cup concept was some waste of time. Well that's how it seems to me regarding what I mentioned earlier. You need to learn from all cultures for ultimate success.

Soule Sphere
Top 6 each of South Korea and Beijing-controlled China. It would be good for Beijing-controlled China pros to get more opportunities to play in international tournaments, something they deserve (to that degree I'd like to see more Chinese international tournaments, especially if they're held in Taipei-controlled China). Then the rest of the four places would be the top four from the Heart Hand, hopefully at least Taiwanese or Japanese pros should qualify each time and these days I expect the Japanese to again!

Heart Hand in Japan, to qualify for the Soule Sphere
by origin nationality:
Top 8 female Korean
Top 8 female Taipei-controlled China
Top 8 female Japan
Top 8 female Beijing-controlled China
Top 6 Taipei-controlled China
Top 6 Japan
Top 6 Europe
Top 6 America
Top South Korean Amateur
Top Beijing-controlled amateur
Top North Korea
Top female North Korea
Top 2 non-KJtC amateur
Top Taipei-controlled China amateur
Top Japanese amateur

6 round swiss, but first 8 sets of three rounds occur, then 16 sets of 4, then the last game is determined between the players. The key here is that each league never does all of it's rounds in one session, but rather it's spread out over a large number of sessions each of 4, 8 or 16 pros. This makes it infinitely easier to schedule for pros. I know at the time we directed doubt towards the Japanese newspapers, but looking back Iyama Yuta wold have never had this issue if the organisers of international tournaments didn't stubbornly insist on holding all the games of a round on the same day. Should it be so surprising a pro would have a busy schedule at home? It was be nice if among the posts bemaoning the Japanese sponsors there was just one mentioning how international sponsors might make it easier for Japanese pros and maybe take a few leaves from the page of the best domestic tournament scene for pros. Also, I would like to see the same passion in regards to female pros getting playing opportunities against the strongest Japanese and Taiwanese pros. Again, maybe we do not 'deserve' to have Japanese pros playing in international tournaments due to this omission. Anyway, instead of using one huge floor of their headquarters they could just use a different small room each day. Then each pro can apply to play in the preliminary session that fits her or his schedule, or it could even be done in the main tournament, splitting players into groups of four.

Okay now I seem more of an organisation grump than Lee Sedol without the skill level that qualifies one to speak so I'll stop. Enough on this topic from me hopefully. That one group i would like to praise for following these principles is Senko, they held a seperate tournaments for non-KJC players that is more logical in promoting go than seeding western women into the main rounds.

The meaning of "life" is to understand the personality codes and intuitive knowledge of individuals, and then groups to a larger an larger sphere (to the destruction of the northern American was an extreme sin, especially since uniquely many of them were close to understanding this meaning of life). If the meaning of life--more correctly the meaning of consciousness, it's highly erroneous to think 'life', which barely has a biological definition, must precede consciousness and emotion. What we mean by, and to that end the meaning of life in terms of dna is growth and perfection into a higher form, the more perfect higher form being. I would say that 99% of people over 24 years from when they first became a living cell are failures, and that's definitely going to include me when I reach 24 years from the time, since you are supposed to be an meaning of consciousness emotional 1 dan, not getting into stupid fights online or pointless wars in life and not whine about problems we are largely responsible for causing like we're 5 years old, and of course that sadly describes the majority of us who claim we're are not children anymore, so at this stage of human evolution, we're generally just trying to be less of a failure and have fun doing it :lol:! In a sense we deserve a lot of the problems we whine about when others whine far less about problems they suffer that were not there fault at all. What most most people mean by the meaning of life is the meaning of consciousness, as I explained earlier, and I should add to that that it's obvious from that how essential biodiversity is to the meaning of consciousness for us, and along with that comes the responsibility of consciousness, which is too look at for all consciousness beings in all universes, which would be one of the main goals for exploring the universe. That and finding other aliens who would of course be playing go! When humans get psychologically advanced enough to prioritise go, we'll understand, haha :lol:

Precisely because it would be beneficial to those who make it, to actively lose out on that in my head, all I could think of was: 1: they're just being sexist 2: they're just being sexist 3: I'm a moron and I'm missing something obvious

(*the problem is that yes, clearing biodiversity for palm fruit monocultures is evil, but while every human on earth and chimps and bonobos are Africans, orangutans are true Asians. And they only live on Asia. Of course you want to reduce the use of palm oil overall since it's better safe than sorry (similar to how even if GMO's are generally safe, although just as it's stupid to deem entire food or chemical groups as unsafe without exceptionally unique and strong evidence, it's stupid to deem GMO's when it's obvious whether it's safe or not is dependant on the specific mutation on the specific food and how it interacts with it and. I guess it seems moronic to group everything together, sadly. It's like people who think of themselves as snowflakes, even if they don't want to admit it, hypocritically not wanting to see food the same way, although one might say that it's actually food that deserves the special treatment than thinking-all-the-same humans (that pretend to be very different or better than one another precisely because we're not that different or better than and we all know it). But even if we temporarily assume they're all generally mostly safe for most people, you still want to avoid it because it encourages economic monopoly and food monoculture, and farming tyranny and cultural genoc-de (actually it's actual genocide since you're extinting the native plant, making it impossible for them to practice any cultural element it's used in in it's more original form). But the vast majority of the palm oil use is in processed products (similar to how most water use is in manufacturing, not household use), so you could just ban refined palm, but not worry about unrefined palm oil and 90% of the palm oil use would decline. And again, orangutan do not exist in Africa natively, so you would expect one of the first things people who claim to be concerned about orangutan and also not prejudiced against certain groups of people would mention is that it would overall be better. And they can't use the excuse that they don't want to promote half-measures, since the EU could ban palm oil from areas native to orangutans today and it would be a huge improvement. It's like saying you would pollute as much as possible until you find a way to be 100% carbon neutral, which sounds very disingenuous and an excuse to pollute more. Like everyone has a chip on their shoulder against Africans? 'Hey, one temporary solution until we properly wean ourselves of might be to ban Asian palm oil and force companies to switch entirely to African palm oil! Oh wait, but I kind of just don't like Africans, I can't have a temporary solution that benefits them, even if it benefits me'. I hope it's just me being an idiot or something because having beef with people is not going to save the world, or bonobos, or orangutans.

And I don't say this because I undervalue Orangutans, because even if they're not on the same level as Bonobos, I see all great apes as deserving to be legal people and think it's obvious Bonobos are superior to humans, (I don't see why few others seem to notice the obvious here :lol:) so that puts me closer to the opposite extreme in terms of caring for great apes in general)

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 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #12 Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:17 pm 
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"The Four Corners of the Earth"

This format is for an exciting quickplay tournament. All the games will be 30m main time with 5 x 30s byo-yomi.

The world is divided into four zones.

* East Asia (CJKT: China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan / Taipei)
* West Asia (the rest of Asia)
* Southern Hemisphere (Latin America, Africa and Oceania)
* the West (North America and Europe)

1. Each country that wants to participate nominates a male player, a female player and a player under 16.

2. The West Asia, Southern Hemisphere, and the West Quarters each play an internal randomly paired Swiss tournament for some rounds. For the sake of argument, seven. This phase of the tournament is online. The player with the most wins is chosen as that Quarter's candidate. If there's a tie between two players, a play off will be held.

3. The four East Asian female and four U16 players play a round robin of seven rounds. Again, ties are resolved by play offs. One player qualifies.

4. In the second stage of the tournament, the four oriental men are combined with the oriental woman or U16, the West Asian, the Southern Hemispherean and the Westerner. This stage takes place in person, somewhere in East Asia, with the organisers paying for the flights.

These eight players are organised into a knockout: the oriental male players are placed in one bracket and the other players are put in the other. The final is a single game, between an East Asian man and any of his possible opponents: a female player, an U16, or a player from outside East Asia. The oriental man takes White and plays without komi.

Benefits:

* Every country who wants to can enter and have some visibility, since Swiss systems are scalable and online games are free.
* Africa is not overrated, like it would be in a continental preliminary format (but is still allowed to compete on equal terms with the rest of the non-oriental world).
* The East Asian male professionals only have to play a maximum of three games, which means a more modest prize can be offered since they don't have to invest much time.
* The craziness of jumbling men, women, young adults and children of many different countries together in random Swisses should be entertaining. The blitz format would encourage upsets and make for especially good spectator sport.


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 Post subject: Re: "Fantasy" Go Tournament
Post #13 Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:47 am 
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bugcat wrote:
"The Four Corners of the Earth"

This format is for an exciting quickplay tournament. All the games will be 30m main time with 5 x 30s byo-yomi.

The world is divided into four zones.

* East Asia (CJKT: China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan / Taipei)
* West Asia (the rest of Asia)
* Southern Hemisphere (Latin America, Africa and Oceania)
* the West (North America and Europe)

1. Each country that wants to participate nominates a male player, a female player and a player under 16.

2. The West Asia, Southern Hemisphere, and the West Quarters each play an internal randomly paired Swiss tournament for some rounds. For the sake of argument, seven. This phase of the tournament is online. The player with the most wins is chosen as that Quarter's candidate. If there's a tie between two players, a play off will be held.

3. The four East Asian female and four U16 players play a round robin of seven rounds. Again, ties are resolved by play offs. One player qualifies.

4. In the second stage of the tournament, the four oriental men are combined with the oriental woman or U16, the West Asian, the Southern Hemispherean and the Westerner. This stage takes place in person, somewhere in East Asia, with the organisers paying for the flights.

These eight players are organised into a knockout: the oriental male players are placed in one bracket and the other players are put in the other. The final is a single game, between an East Asian man and any of his possible opponents: a female player, an U16, or a player from outside East Asia. The oriental man takes White and plays without komi.

Benefits:

* Every country who wants to can enter and have some visibility, since Swiss systems are scalable and online games are free.
* Africa is not overrated, like it would be in a continental preliminary format (but is still allowed to compete on equal terms with the rest of the non-oriental world).
* The East Asian male professionals only have to play a maximum of three games, which means a more modest prize can be offered since they don't have to invest much time.
* The craziness of jumbling men, women, young adults and children of many different countries together in random Swisses should be entertaining. The blitz format would encourage upsets and make for especially good spectator sport.


(bold is mine)

Wow this makes a lot of sense :clap: . This is a GOOD context to use Disney time Limits, too! (In addition seems maybe to tap into East asian cultural perspectives on how to be international, so the emotional resonance makes it more likely to be carried out by a company!)

Lots of the things we take for granted as being not only absolutely essential and necessary, but so obviously so to us now it seems strange people in the past didn't see it that way, were once considered 'crazy' so you're probably on the right track. When something is unfamiliar or unrecognisable it seems crazy, but of course that vital important thing one is missing would by definition be unfamiliar and unrecognisable and so seem crazy! Maybe I'll call tournaments/events that take into account normally neglected (and therefore nutritionally starved) considerations Copernican Tournaments.

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Post #14 Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 5:16 am 
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Additionally, with Taiwan rules. Taiwan-Japan+ Supreme Go League.

7-round swiss preliminary held in Taipei-controlled China for 4 places in the Main tournament. 4 top amateurs between Japan&Taiwan + 4 top amateurs between Korea and Beijing-controlled China + 12 female pros between Japan&Taiwan + 12 female pros between Korea and Beijing-controlled China + 16 between Europe and the Americas + 8 between all places not so far mentioned (rest of Asia including 1 place for north Korea, Africa, etc) + 4 top U16 players worldwide + 4 top O45 players worldwide.

Main Tournament 4 places from preliminary + 24 places among Japan and Taiwan + 4 from Korea and Beijing controlled China
After 5 rounds, the top two in the swiss play two 8 hours per side two-day matches. If each player wins one match, the person who won the last game in the swiss wins the title unless only the other player won their game by more than the komi (or resignation or timeout or forfeit).

(For the last part regarding the last swiss round and title match, I may have by good fortune accidently did a tournament element style the norm population of people following this realm are familiar and comfortable with)

$64,000 equivalent in Taiwanese dollars times log base 2 of their overall position, continuing into the preliminaries although the 4 qualifiers are ordered according to their position in the main tournament.

I will aim to make it by 2025, before I go.

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Post #15 Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 12:47 am 
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How about a youth-weighted youth tournament?

A competition for players aged 10 to 16, at 6.5 komi, with the older player in every match up taking White.

For every year that White is older than Black, his komi is reduced by a point.


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Post #16 Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 4:59 am 
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bugcat wrote:
How about a youth-weighted youth tournament?

A competition for players aged 10 to 16, at 6.5 komi, with the older player in every match up taking White.

For every year that White is older than Black, his komi is reduced by a point.


That when children take exams that they should be scored proportional to their age from germination, so the komi could be equal to the full komi divided by the proportional age difference between the two. In the example you gave (6.5/(16/10)) = a komi of 4.0624. Arbritary which give an emotional sense of control but an emotional sense of control is actually what we don't want--that means it's more likely to be wrong!

However I think better than changing.

1-The best player under 18, 16, 15, or so, the tournament is even. The best performing player under any age and season from 15 years zero season can also be seen from here too.
2-The best talent. In this case, we look at all games again but this time and then award points to the younger player according to komi multiplied by their proportion difference in age. So if a 10 year old loses to a 16 year old by 3.5 points when we look at the tournament results again for best talent this would actually count as a won game. Then the best player according to those results is the best talent.

Age brackets, like U18, U15, U12, are not quite good enough. In my education system there are season groups instead of year groups, since that is much more appropriate to the growing ages of children. Bill Spight posted Malcom Gladwell Explaining why in Outliers, and he was talking in the context of sports! (it seems that we really don't care as much about children's education and development as we think we do, rather than for the original goal of shuttling them into factories. That's why the ridiculous year-group system is still in place throughout the world, among other things). In any case, the same should be applied to youth anything. So every equinox and solstice their will be a youth tournament, and the top two from the youth tournament each time may play a match with the two top rated female players and two top rated O48 players.

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Post #17 Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 9:07 am 
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Life Lens, held every meteorological season so 4 times a year, in Taiwan.

The correct understanding of time and total love--the interaction of consciousness-- is necessary for humans to advance. NOT physical technology, unless it aid in this understanding more than the physical power it gives you, lest the power of humans as a life form supersedes their wisdom


Hayago swiss for all female players and all U24 (from germination) players, however resinations aren't allowed since the bugcat-style feature applies where after the tournament all the games are looked at again and young players are awarded extra points according to komi multiplied by the proportion of their opponents age over theirs.

2 winners of the the tournament
2 top rated U15(FG) players
2 top rated female players
2 top rated O48(FG) players

play in a 6-round hayago swiss to determine the ultimate Life lens that meteorological season

Heart Hand in Japan

Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva practicing deep pranja paramita
Clearly saw that all five skandhas are empty
Transforming all suffering and distress form's emptiynesssss
Sensation, Perception, Mental Reaction, Consciousness, are also like this
all things are essentially empty
Not Born, not destroyed, not stained, not pure, without loss, without gain,
Emptiness's Form, Sensation, Perception, Reaction, Consciousness,
No eye ear nose, tongue, body, mind, cookouts, sound, smell, taste, touch, object of thought, seeing and so on to no thinking, shiraputra
No Ignorance or it's ending, no old age and death or it's ending, no old or death or their cause
No suffering, or it's cause cessation, path
No wisdom or attainment, since to attain their is naught
the Bodhisattva lives by the Prajna Paramita
With no hindrance in the mind and therefore no fear
Far beyond the delusive thinking right here is nirvana
the Unsurpassed Supreme mantra which Completely removes all suffering


Korea&Taiwan&Japan means Korean players that aren't strong enough to qualify for 'Korea&China' can qualify for 'Korea&Taiwan&Japan', and it's the same for Taiwan since by 'China' I always mean both Taipei-controlled and Beijing-controlled areas. Each stage is a swiss with rounds equal log base 2 to the number of participants, enough to decide a definite winner, however they never play at the same time, since players are placed into groups of 8 or less and the number of games necessary to determine a winner for that group takes place. Then on a later date the same is done for the next group.

Stage 1 Spring&Summer 2 hours absolute per side.
Invitation of 96 players with origin not exclusive to any of Taipei-controlled China, Japan, South Korea, and Beijing-controlled China. If a player has origin in one of the four territories mentioned but also in a territory outside of these, they can also be invited.
Top female from Korea&Taiwan&Japan 16
Top female from players from Korea&China 16
Top amateurs from Korea&Japan&Taiwan 10
Top Amateurs from Korea&China 10

Groups of 16, then groups of 8, then groups of 2

Stage 3 Autumn 4 hours absolute per side.
Top Korean&Taiwanese&Japanese 24
Top 8 from stage 2

Groups of 4, then groups of 4, then groups of 2

Stage 4 Winter. Time limits: 8 hours absolute per side.
Top Korean&Chinese 12
Top 4 from stage 3

Groups of 4, then groups of 2, then groups of 2.

Soule Sphere in Korea
Only One


Korea&Taiwan&Japan, Korea&China each nominate 6 players, in addition to the top four rated female players for a total of 16 players (in this case Korea, Taiwan&Japan&Each nominate two players, and the Korea gets another 3 from Korea&China, Taiwan technically can also get China places too, even though it's quite unlikely.

Preferably I'll try to get these running as soon as possible. Later on, maybe in 2030 or so.

the Supreme Mind, Fighting Spirit and Wealth Window are identical alternating international tournaments held in Korea, Japan and China respectively. 32 8-round two-day swiss preliminaries with a time limit of 3 hours absolute per game, held consecutively for a total of 64 days, then a main tournament of 32 with time limit of 6 hours absolute per side and 9 hours absolute for the semi-finals and final.
Winner: $250,000
Runner-Up: $128,000
two other Semifinalists: $64,000
four other Quarterfinalist: $32,000
eight other Octofinalists: $16,000
sixteen other Main Tournament entrants: $8,000
And so on down to the winners of round one of the preliminaries, $128.

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Post #18 Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 7:05 am 
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Heart Hand annual tournament in Japan

A multiple of 2 Up to 16 players play enough, swiss games among each other to determine a winner, then on a different day different group of players play, until all the games in the tournament have been played.

Stage 1 time limit 1 hour per side, maybe TV tournament

Female players:
Japan 16
Korean peninsula 8 Taiwan 8
Taipei and Beijing controlled China 32
-
Amateur only players:
Japan 8
Korean peninsula 4 Taiwan 4
Taipei and Beijing controlled China 16
-
Others (pro or amateur):
Europe 8 Americas 8
Oceania&Africa(incArabian Peninsula) and West Asia i.e. India, Pakistan, the middle east, etc 8
Asia outside of ROK, ROC, PRC, Japan. In other words North Korea and the rest of Asia 8

128-player 7-round swiss, $8,000 for winner, $4,000 for runner up, $2,000 for places 3 and 4, $1,000 for places 5-8, $500 for places 9-16, etc
_____

Stage 2
time limit 2 hours absolute per side
Japan 16
Korean Peninsula 8 Taiwan 8
32 Qualifiers from Stage 1

64-player 6-round swiss, $16,00 for winner, $8,000 for runner up, $4,000 for places 3-4, etc
_____

Stage 3
time limit 4 hours per side
Taipei and Beijing controlled China 16
16 Qualifiers from stage 2

32-player 5-round swiss, $32,000 for winner, $16,000 for runner up, $8,000 for places 3-4, etc
__
Total prize money for all stages approaches $128,000
____________________

Life Lens Quarter-annual tournament (4 times a year, every meteorological season) in Taiwan

(Age always measured from cell combination). Women players and U24 play in a Swiss Hayago tournament with bugcat's feature where after the tournament all the games are looked at again and young players are awarded extra points according to komi multiplied by the proportion of their opponents age over theirs to determine the best talent award. In any case, pairing between players closer in age are prioritised every second game anyway.

Then the top 4 from the tournament 4 among Women and U15 players then play against 4 top O45's in a similar swiss.
____________________

Seoule Sphere in Korea, Wealth Window in Taipei-controlled China, Supreme mind in Korea, Fighting Spirit in Japan.
Each are held every four years and alternate yearly, but use the exact same system.

In each of the four place mentioned, eight 8-round two-day swiss preliminaries with a time limit of 1.5 hours absolute per game, held consecutively for a total of 64 days. Any player from anywhere can decide to play any of the preliminaries but only one, although pros get to play in up to preliminaries as long as they are each in different places among those mentioned then a main tournament of 32 with a time limit of 6 hours absolute per game and 9 hours absolute for the semi-finals and final, these will be 2-day games.
Winner: $250,000
Runner-Up: $128,000
two other Semifinalists: $64,000
four other Quarterfinalist: $32,000
eight other Octofinalists: $16,000
sixteen other Main Tournament entrants: $8,000
And so on down to the winners of round one of the preliminaries, $128.

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Post #19 Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 8:40 am 
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All international tournaments outside of beijing-controlled china should probably have an Open preliminary that determines most of the places, however perhaps also a preliminary for all players outside of beijing-controlled china except chinese female pros and amatuears, who may also play in it.

This should be fine beijing-controlled china hosts most of the international tournaments, and maybe since beijing-controlled chinese players in general are doing better, maybe chinese sponsors will host more international tournaments. That being said. The Fujitsu cup stopped at exactly the worst time. Just because there weren't as many Japanese winners, they discontinued at exactly the period Iyama had the chance of being able to do well in it, so in a sense, as is often the case for Japanese, Fujitsu's response to the problem actually went against the very people with the capacity to solve the problem.

Also, since territory-specific preliminary tournaments are more common in the corona-induced internet age, sponsors should probably should mix Taiwan and Japan together (so for example 5 places for Taiwan and Japan together instead of 4 for Japan and 1 for Taiwan).

Although Now I come to the thought that maybe there is no excuse for having territory specific preliminaries over the internet. It's perfectly possible to have mixed preliminaries on the internet. In fact maybe it's during this corona induced internet age that mixed preliminaries are easeist to conduct.

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Post #20 Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 2:23 am 
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In international tournaments pairing between professionals from the same pro association should probably be avoided. And to make it easier for smaller pro organisations like Taiwan's, it makes sense to pair female players against pros from the association with the least representatives that round, in both the preliminaries and main tournament . . .

Together this makes fair for stronger players from the larger pro association--the one in the Beijing controlled area--yet also for the pro association with less pros like the Taipei controlled areas one to have more of a chance in general to do well in international events, arguably even for Japan too.

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