Life In 19x19
http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=10974		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  othkhvn [ Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:38 am ]
Post subject:  Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
I finally got around to reading The Master of Go by Yasunari Kawabata and found the below passage odd:

Quote:
... turned one of the Master's white stones right side up. If the white stones had face and obverse, then the face must be the inner, stripeless side of the clamshell; but few paid attention to such details.
Source


If the above is true, then wouldn't all pictures showing shell stones stripe side up on the go board be improper? This would greatly devalue the varying grades of shell stones, especially if the stripes aren't supposed to be shown when playing.

On the other hand, Kuroki Goishi Ten does show the stripe side as the upper side here.

Kawabata admits that people for the most part don't care, but it'd be interesting to hear if anyone has any insight into the proper etiquette.
Author:  xed_over [ Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
As I recently posted on someone's Facebook post about some snow-grade stones they bought... they were complaining that the lines were so faint and thin, that they were almost non-existent, so they thought they got a bad set of stones.

The Japanese value perfection over imperfection, and the lines are viewed as imperfections.

At the lower end of the scale are the utility-grade stones. The lines are thicker, coarser, darker.
At the high end is the snow-grade ("snow", as in pure white). The lines are thinner, lighter, almost non-existent.

Getting clam shells large enough to cut stones with almost no visible lines is extremely difficult and rare. These are highly valued.

I've also read (and seen videos) of other pros who will routinely flip over played stones, line-side down.
Author:  Nyanjilla [ Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
I did ask a couple of pros about how to play clamshell stones.... whether it's stripy-side-up or face-down. The best answer I got was along the lines of: "you're playing a game of go, not making pretty pictures---place the stone whichever way up it lands".

But I suspect there might be subtle messages involved with turning stones over after they've been played. I didn't get around to asking that question.
Author:  xed_over [ Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
Nyanjilla wrote:
I did ask a couple of pros about how to play clamshell stones.... whether it's stripy-side-up or face-down. The best answer I got was along the lines of: "you're playing a game of go, not making pretty pictures---place the stone whichever way up it lands".

But I suspect there might be subtle messages involved with turning stones over after they've been played. I didn't get around to asking that question.

I have a friend who has the yunzi stones that are flat on one side.
I like annoying him by playing my stones randomly flat-side up. He always flips them over.
Author:  xed_over [ Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
othkhvn wrote:
On the other hand, Kuroki Goishi Ten does show the stripe side as the upper side here.

I seriously doubt they are declaring which side should be the up-side. Its just the most natural way to differentiate between the different grades.
Author:  Uberdude [ Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
If lines on shell stones are considered bad why are shell stones valued more than glass or plastic which can be perfectly plain? (Other than rarity/status/boasting). I personally find some patterning attractive.
Author:  Nyanjilla [ Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
Uberdude wrote:
If lines on shell stones are considered bad why are shell stones valued more than glass or plastic which can be perfectly plain? (Other than rarity/status/boasting). I personally find some patterning attractive.


Not "bad" as such.... but maybe showing them deliberately could be seen as ostentatious.
Author:  ez4u [ Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
othkhvn wrote:
I finally got around to reading The Master of Go by Yasunari Kawabata and found the below passage odd:

Quote:
... turned one of the Master's white stones right side up. If the white stones had face and obverse, then the face must be the inner, stripeless side of the clamshell; but few paid attention to such details.
Source


If the above is true, then wouldn't all pictures showing shell stones stripe side up on the go board be improper? This would greatly devalue the varying grades of shell stones, especially if the stripes aren't supposed to be shown when playing.

On the other hand, Kuroki Goishi Ten does show the stripe side as the upper side here.

Kawabata admits that people for the most part don't care, but it'd be interesting to hear if anyone has any insight into the proper etiquette.

I have no idea what the original Japanese said (where's JF when you need him?). However, Kawabata's anthropomorphic musings on the nature of Go stones aside, the 'proper' placement is lines up. But it is no big deal. Like Nyanjilla, I have heard pros say that Go is not about which side up you stones land. (Or at least until our moves themselves stop being eyesores? :blackeye: )
Author:  xed_over [ Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
ez4u wrote:
However, ..., the 'proper' placement is lines up.

Is it?
Based on...?
Author:  DrStraw [ Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
ez4u wrote:
Kawabata's anthropomorphic musings on the nature of Go stones aside, the 'proper' placement is lines up.


Yes, but should the lines be parallel to the long side or the short side? And if they are on a diagonal is that the equivalent of playing in your opponent's corner first?

So many questions and not enough time.
Author:  skydyr [ Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
DrStraw wrote:
ez4u wrote:
Kawabata's anthropomorphic musings on the nature of Go stones aside, the 'proper' placement is lines up.


Yes, but should the lines be parallel to the long side or the short side? And if they are on a diagonal is that the equivalent of playing in your opponent's corner first?

So many questions and not enough time.


Ideally, you'll have 50% parallel to the grain, 35% perpendicular, and the rest at an angle. True skill is shown in maintaining those ratios throughout a heated exchange on the board. It's said that when a meijin plays, you can sometimes see the grain of the board bending to conform to the placement of the stone so that this ratio is maintained.
Author:  Fedya [ Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
I care more about playing my stones on the proper points than which side is showing. I just wish I were better at the former. :oops:
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
Quote:
... turned one of the Master's white stones right side up. If the white stones had face and obverse, then the face must be the inner, stripeless side of the clamshell; but few paid attention to such details.


This is yet another of the many infelicities perpetrated by non-go player Seidensticker, but in this case due to sloppy English.

First, the face and obverse are the same thing (Latin obvertere is to 'face towards').

Second, 'must' does not mean 'has to' here. It means 'presumably is'. The Japanese is 'darou'.

Third, there is no real sense of 'right' way up in the Japanese. It just says he turned the stone over ('uragaeshita' and, in a later sentence, 'hikkurikaesu'), the reference being to an inner face (内側) and an outer face (表) of a shell, not to a right and wrong side.

Fourth, there is no reference in the Japanese to 'few'. In fact it strictly says no-one pays attention to such things (そんなものを気をつける人はない).

It must be borne in mind that Seidensticker was a great admirer of Arthur Waley and often consciously followed Waley's style when translating. Waley was notorious for numerous mis-translations - howlers, even - in Tale of Genji, but his work is admired (rightly) for its sense of linguistic style and ability to convey the tone of the original. In the case of Master of Go, Seidensticker was concerned only with conveying Kawabata's observations (in Chapter 10) of Otake/Kitani's nervous tics, which he does in good, idiomatic English. We know from other details that he had little concern about what go players might think about the book. But perhaps that was a great pity, a mistake even, because Kawabata did care, and if the job of the translator is to convey as much of the original author's intentions as possible, Seidensticker ideally ought to have cared too.

There is, incidentally, no evidence that I am aware of that the real Kitani had a stripe compulsion. If anything, a case could be made on evidence available that Kitani was not averse to a mild touch of gamesmanship and may have been trying to irritate his opponent. Although I have seen a couple of players check which way a White stone faces in the bowl before picking it up, and adjusting it if necessary, I am certain they are only either following a personal compulsion for tidiness, like not walking on the cracks in pavements (you also get liner-uppers in shogi), or taking a moment to compose themselves.

Remember also that observers like Kawabata have to sit there for hours, not understanding much of the game but having to find something to write about. The devil makes mischief for idle hands and we know that Kitani was irritated by other things that Kawabata latched onto or made up.
Author:  gowan [ Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
Though Kawabata actually did prepare reports on the match for newspaper the book Meijin (The Master of Go in English translation) was a novelization of his reports so we could expect the book to differ from reality in many ways. John Fairbairn mentioned the issue of which side of the white stones. I could believe that Kawabata put this into the novel as a small detail to convey Otake's character. Kawabata was an amateur go player but a serious one, so I would expect him to know that which side was up was generally of no importance.
Author:  EdLee [ Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:57 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi othkhvn, if you want to see what pros actually do with the shell stones in a serious tourney (or a game review, or a live commentary), watch any available videos on YouTube, WeiqiTV.cn, BadukTV, etc.

If you can find one example where a pro flips a shell stone after it's placed on the board, please include the link here. Thanks. :)
Author:  Bonobo [ Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
[..]

If you can find one example where a pro flips a shell stone after it's placed on the board, please include the link here. Thanks. :)
After this I’d rather expect that a pro asks for undo than that they ever flip a stone after it’s been placed :-D
Author:  gowan [ Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
I haven't seen any pro turning over a stone that has already played on the board but I have seen pros adjust stones that were played a little off of where lines intersect. This would be done on the player's turn to move and doesn't seem to be considered improper.
Author:  Aidoneus [ Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
I don't know about shell stones but I always put the magnet side down on my stones...oh wait, this is a serious discussion?!
Author:  DrStraw [ Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
Aidoneus wrote:
I don't know about shell stones but I always put the magnet side down on my stones...oh wait, this is a serious discussion?!


I always let the server decide for me. That obviates the responsibility.
Author:  Inkwolf [ Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shell Go Stone Etiquette?
xed_over wrote:
I have a friend who has the yunzi stones that are flat on one side.
I like annoying him by playing my stones randomly flat-side up. He always flips them over.


Sometimes the kids at Go club play their stones this way, and I have to really rein in the OCD not to flip them over. XD It's bad enough having to tell them over and over to stop spinning the bowl lids. without getting into a snit about which side up the stones are.
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/