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| Software for visualizing influence and territory http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11330 |
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| Author: | Krama [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Software for visualizing influence and territory |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGDQccLdZWc I have no idea how this was done but it is an amazing way to show what the game of go is about to some who has never heard of it. Usually when you tell someone about go and the rules of it they ask you what the point is. No matter how hard you try to explain (even if you play with them) they will most likely not understand the point of the game. This video is a really nice example of what "could" be going on. It is however up to the player to know if something is dead or alive (by reading), but this is at least interesting to some extent to those who don't even know the rules yet. How hard would it be to program something like this? And I understand it wouldn't be possible to program it to create these influence colors by its own, but a player with knowledge of life and death, and general fighting could manually "color" the board as the moves go on. If this could be simplified it would be a great tool for teaching/learning even for stronger kyu players. |
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| Author: | RBerenguel [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Creating a go software |
Krama wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGDQccLdZWc I have no idea how this was done but it is an amazing way to show what the game of go is about to some who has never heard of it. Usually when you tell someone about go and the rules of it they ask you what the point is. No matter how hard you try to explain (even if you play with them) they will most likely not understand the point of the game. This video is a really nice example of what "could" be going on. It is however up to the player to know if something is dead or alive (by reading), but this is at least interesting to some extent to those who don't even know the rules yet. How hard would it be to program something like this? And I understand it wouldn't be possible to program it to create these influence colors by its own, but a player with knowledge of life and death, and general fighting could manually "color" the board as the moves go on. If this could be simplified it would be a great tool for teaching/learning even for stronger kyu players. IIRC this is done using either Pachi's or Fuego's influence functions, or maybe Montecarlo winning probabilities, don't exactly remember. Totally done by computer (well, someone with skill and love programmed it, sure). |
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| Author: | Bonobo [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Creating a go software |
I’ve seen this beautiful video years ago and am very happy to watch it again; and I think it boosted my understanding of “influence”. Wish I could watch the whole game this way … but since the video only has a few moves, I guess I will have to develop this kind of “X-Ray Vision” for my own play. And, BTW, this TOTALLY reminds me of … viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11086  <edit> Krama: </edit> <edit 2> Unhid the YT video because it might be overlooked otherwise</edit 2> |
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| Author: | fireproof [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Creating a go software |
Very interesting! Thanks for posting that. |
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| Author: | Bonobo [ Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Creating a go software |
Found an (apparently old) Java software for visualising influence: http://www.zenmachine.co.uk/gowaves/index.html Nice to see influence visualised, though the colours and the (IMHO too fast) movements make it painful for me to watch.  (Krama, if you’re still here: I think it might be a nice idea to change the thread title to “influence visualised” or “visualising influence” or something … I was close to creating a new thread but then remembered this one …) |
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| Author: | Krama [ Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory |
I am still here And I am really interested in the development of such software! |
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| Author: | agewisdom [ Sun May 03, 2015 9:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory |
The video was beautiful. Really helps a beginner such as myself to visualize the concepts of territory and to focus on how the each new stone influences and reinforces the existing ones. And how the opponent tries to do the same and the interaction between black and white. Too bad it's not the complete game and there's only 1 video. Sigh... |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Sun May 03, 2015 9:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory |
It is not "influence" that is being visualised. Nor is it "proximity". The visualisations are misleading. |
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| Author: | agewisdom [ Sun May 03, 2015 9:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory |
RobertJasiek wrote: It is not "influence" that is being visualised. Nor is it "proximity". The visualisations are misleading. Perhaps, I wouldn't know better. But at least someone tried to visualize this in easy to understand manner for a beginner. Obviously a software can't do this, but an approximation would be better than nothing, esp. for a beginner. |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Sun May 03, 2015 9:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory |
False information makes things more difficult (also) for beginners, not easier. |
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| Author: | Krama [ Sun May 03, 2015 11:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory |
RobertJasiek wrote: It is not "influence" that is being visualised. Nor is it "proximity". The visualisations are misleading. Since you need to be a blister on every topic fine. This is visualization of stone power. The more stones in one area gives empty area around those stones some sort of aura ether black or white. If the stones are alive that is. Also if this aura is near the edge of the board or in the corners it is mot likely a certain territory. Do we have to define everything precisely so that you don't get all argument thirsty? |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Sun May 03, 2015 12:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory |
Krama wrote: empty area around those [live] stones A beginner might think that live stones behind live opposing stones would hardly affect an empty area, and this can be wrong in many cases. |
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| Author: | Krama [ Sun May 03, 2015 12:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory |
RobertJasiek wrote: Krama wrote: empty area around those [live] stones A beginner might think that live stones behind live opposing stones would hardly affect an empty area, and this can be wrong in many cases. I don't understand what you are saying. Also this video maybe isn't suitable for someone who learned the rules of go 5 minutes ago but for someone playing the game for a week. |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Sun May 03, 2015 12:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory |
| Author: | Krama [ Sun May 03, 2015 1:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory |
RobertJasiek wrote: Yes and? The zone on left is black territory since the "influence" or what I called aura of the black stones is projected near the edge of the board. The white stones project the power towards the right what we call thickness but since there is no white stones on the right it can't be called moyo or territory yet however if any fight breaks out on the right this white thickness will be useful. What is there not to understand? Why are you trying to complicate everything? |
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| Author: | Bki [ Sun May 03, 2015 1:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory |
Krama wrote: RobertJasiek wrote: Yes and? The zone on left is black territory since the "influence" or what I called aura of the black stones is projected near the edge of the board. The white stones project the power towards the right what we call thickness but since there is no white stones on the right it can't be called moyo or territory yet however if any fight breaks out on the right this white thickness will be useful. What is there not to understand? Why are you trying to complicate everything? Well, I'm not sure I would call white's influence thickness given its wall is eyeless and can be quite vulnerable to attack if B prevent him from extending. |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Sun May 03, 2015 3:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory |
Krama wrote: The white stones project the power towards the right what we call thickness See - you have exactly the misconception about influence I am pointing at. Also the black stones have (great) influence on the upper side. A visualisation may show a mostly neutral area there (except directly in front of the white wall). It reminds me of a game I (then 4d) played against a 4d, in which I attacked such a white wall. My opponent was surprised: "But this is thickness!". I said: "It is not thickness but rubbish!" I killed the group several times also in post-game analysis. I had known what my opponent had not known: a simple wall requires an extension for its eyespace to represent thickness. Quote: Why are you trying to complicate everything? Why are you overlooking that things are not as simple as you wish? Influence does not equate radiation of black or white light. See http://senseis.xmp.net/?Influence |
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| Author: | Krama [ Sun May 03, 2015 4:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory |
Yes white needs to play a move there in order to call it thickness and we can assume that it is white to move since the position in which it is black to move would make this wall stupid (which proves white is a total beginner). Again what is your point? We are just spinning in circles. |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Sun May 03, 2015 4:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory |
Influence exists in each position, after each move, and changes dynamically from move to move. The visualisation pictures show similar (although less drastic) misconceptions because connection and life status impacts on the intersections are not properly assessed. |
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| Author: | Krama [ Mon May 04, 2015 2:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory |
RobertJasiek wrote: Influence exists in each position, after each move, and changes dynamically from move to move. The visualisation pictures show similar (although less drastic) misconceptions because connection and life status impacts on the intersections are not properly assessed. This is correct however remember that the video was made for someone who never played go and was supposed to show how it is played. Yes it is wrong in many cases since the zones displayed in the fights were maybe wrong as you said but it doesn't matter since most of the zones displayed in the game were correct. I would gladly show this to anyone who doesn't know what go is and I am pretty sure they would understand the game more easily than if you just tell them that we are placing stones on the board in order to get as many points as possible. You must also mention that this is the most basic thing what they are seeing since as you said a lot of things are hard to map since there are fights and ko fights and so on, but you just tell that person that it is a bit complex for their level of understanding so they don't get confused. |
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