Life In 19x19
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Anyone give a darn about go in the West?
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Author:  daal [ Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:40 am ]
Post subject:  Anyone give a darn about go in the West?
The EGC (European Go Congress) is winding to a close, and there was no thread here about it. Does nobody give a hoot?

Here we have the new European pros such as popular KGS players Roln111 (Ilya Shikshin), Cheater (Pavol Lisy), OohAah (Ali Jabarin) and Breakfast (Alexandre Dinerchtein) and others battling it out for the title of European Champion, as well as a main tournament open to players of all nations. We have a well done website which offers live streaming of the competition and game records. We have the top boards all being broadcast on KGS, and yet here on the main forum for go in the western world, nary a word.

We often discuss why go isn't more popular among the general populations, and yet here we have one of the two most important go events in the West, and apparently it's not interesting enough for even the members of the main Western go forum to talk about. The US Go congress hardly fared better, represented by a thread focusing on the difficulty of finding results.

Why such apparent indifference?
Author:  EdLee [ Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:24 am ]
Post subject: 
Usually, good results require work. The better the outcome and higher the quality, the more work. :)

In this particular case of the EGC, I heard it has to do with the new sponsorship from the Chinese group(s) --
they are new to this, and lacked the experience (or foresight) to promote it either in the West or in Asia, for that matter. :)

The recent bumpy situation with EuroGoTV didn't help, either.

The difficulty of even finding the results of the 2015 US Open... kind of speaks for itself.

On the bright side, this year the live Youtube streams of the US Open Masters are very nice indeed.

Win some, lose some. :)
Author:  Mustard [ Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone give a darn about go in the West?
I think the forum has lately gotten quiet overall.

The best thing about the egc is the 3d player named Sai, who won the first seven rounds.
Author:  EdLee [ Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:33 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
the 3d player named Sai
Oh, interesting -- which ethnic origin is this name ? :)
Quote:
I think the forum has lately gotten quiet overall.
After all, it is summer, though nearing the end.

Many people are busy at the two Go congresses. :)
Author:  Jujube [ Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone give a darn about go in the West?
When chess Giants Nakamura and Aronian had their face-off in New York, it was about the players, the site had both of them full-page advertising spread of mean-looking chess players duelling it out. It drew the crowds and generated a lot of attention. Do you think many tournaments in one congress (not to mention it being scheduled at the same time as the American congress, in the holiday season) means that you can't see the wood for the trees? Where is the main event?
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone give a darn about go in the West?
I followed the EGC a little bit on KGS but since I just opened it up every now and then, I had to copy the games each time to see the moves I missed, because KGS doesn't allow such a thing inside a demo. Put me off after a while.

But I really liked the live broadcast plus KGS board on the webpage. Though I think the thing I missed the most are concise summaries of the rounds and the results, preferably with pro comments on the key aspects of the games.

They had a pro there, who sometimes analysed the game while the players were still playing but the audio was quite bad and you could tell this was just on the fly. Still great but I think for the casual Go players such reviews would be very great when presented with a little more care (e.g. in a seperate video on Youtube).
Author:  DrStraw [ Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone give a darn about go in the West?
I did not even know the European was going on. Seems strange to have it the same week as the US. Had I know I would have followed the results. Had the results to the US been available I would have been following it more closely. (Yes, I know they were available, but in a format which was useless for seeing who was ahead.) As it is, there is little to talk about when information is not available.
Author:  gowan [ Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone give a darn about go in the West?
The US Go Congress and the European Congress have overlapped many years. Sometimes it helps pros to spend time at both. Both Congresses happen in August and the EGC is two weeks long so it is difficult to avoid overlapping.
Author:  Knotwilg [ Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone give a darn about go in the West?
The first ones to create a thread about the egc should be the organizers, no?
There was a good deal of fuzz about the european pro contest.
Perhaps the egc is regarded as more of a convivial event?
Author:  DrStraw [ Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone give a darn about go in the West?
Knotwilg wrote:
The first ones to create a thread about the egc should be the organizers, no?


It that is the case then perhaps the question should be changed to "Do go organizers in the west care about L19?". The presumably care about their tournaments.
Author:  Mustard [ Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone give a darn about go in the West?
Knotwilg wrote:
The first ones to create a thread about the egc should be the organizers, no?


Why? We have discussions about professional tournaments as well without organizers creating the threads. Perhaps the reason is that this forum is too international? I mean in the german forum are lots of threads about german tournaments, but here it would be strange, since most people won't care about that. So perhaps the egc and american go congress are too local as well?
Author:  oren [ Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone give a darn about go in the West?
daal wrote:
Why such apparent indifference?


I lost interest when the broadcasted games were not the strongest players in the European open. When I see results and news, I don't care about best European player, I want to see the best games in the tournament.
Author:  Jujube [ Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone give a darn about go in the West?
I followed the American Congress because YouTube personalities (e.g. Haylee, Andrew, etc) were involved, the livestreams were solid (for a first attempt), and it was (fairly) well-advsertised. If they streamed on Twitch they would have done better.

I never even knew the EGC was happening.

People watch for an event. 100,000 people watch LoL on Twitch, and I bet half are (very) casual players, and a quarter haven't even played the game. Create a reason to watch (elite players, "Rumble in the Jungle"-style advertising, colour-commentary and personalities), and advertise it to death. Enough said.
Author:  xed_over [ Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
The difficulty of even finding the results of the 2015 US Open... kind of speaks for itself.

Home page -> Tournaments -> Tournament Crosstabs
http://www.usgo.org/tournaments/crosstab/
Author:  MMaestro [ Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone give a darn about go in the West?
Honestly there's just more action and chatter over at r/baduk. But I really did enjoy watching the US Go congress streams this year. I very much look forward to if I could attend next year.
Author:  DrStraw [ Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
xed_over wrote:
EdLee wrote:
The difficulty of even finding the results of the 2015 US Open... kind of speaks for itself.

Home page -> Tournaments -> Tournament Crosstabs
http://www.usgo.org/tournaments/crosstab/


You already posted that link and it is the one I am referring to as being useless for the purposes of determining who is leading. For all I know the people who have 5-0 score could all be 20k with McMahon scores of -15. We need a table which indicates relative position.
Author:  xed_over [ Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
DrStraw wrote:
For all I know the people who have 5-0 score could all be 20k with McMahon scores of -15. We need a table which indicates relative position.

I agree. I'll have to see if I can figure out how to make that change happen.
Author:  happysocks [ Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone give a darn about go in the West?
Absolutely! While I usually follow the world championships (go and chess) with fascination and wonder the US and European Championships are also very interesting. This year as was watching another fantastically covered US Chess Championships (men's and women's!) by the Saint Louis Chess Club I couldn't help but wonder when go fans might see something similar in quality. Andrew Jackson and the AGA team in their coverage of Congress this year have really given us something to be grateful for. And while the EGC covarage was a little bit glitchy they seemed to have worked through most of their issues as the championships wore on. Quite enjoyed Li Cong's game commentary as well as the lectures by Catalin and Co and pair go final coverage with Jabarin 1p was a real treat. Suffice to say am a big fan of western go and hold big hopes for their future!

As for this year there is so much good content it will take me some time to go through it but the plan is to enjoy every last bit of it. :D

US Congress coverage (and more) can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/user/USGOWeb

Eurpean Congress coverage here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-7c9v ... zj1Rn_yOTQ
Author:  Shenoute [ Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone give a darn about go in the West?
daal wrote:
(...) Here we have the new European pros such as popular KGS players Roln111 (Ilya Shikshin), Cheater (Pavol Lisy), OohAah (Ali Jabarin) and Breakfast (Alexandre Dinerchtein) and others battling it out for the title of European Champion, as well as a main tournament open to players of all nations. We have a well done website which offers live streaming of the competition and game records. We have the top boards all being broadcast on KGS, and yet here on the main forum for go in the western world, nary a word. (...)


Well, I watched a few games of the EGC on KGS but I can easily see why many (most?) people would not:
- it is long
- there is no commentary (either live or after the event )
- despite being summer, I guess a lot of people still have to go to work

Point 2) is especially important. Where are the commented games?

To me, this question is somewhat related to a point that was raised again and again when I was part of a club that organised a tournament: should we a) offer high money prizes to entice the strong european players to come or b) use the money to make the tournament less expensive for the go poulation as a whole?

After a few years of having (some) strong european players attending the tournament, it became clear to me that I was more interested in b). The fact that strong players were there had absolutely no influence on my tournament. They were not commenting games, no workshop was organised, etc. And indeed, who could blame them?, they were here to win the tournament, which required a lot of work, not for teaching purposes.

In my mind, this is related to Europe now having pro players. Sure, it is a good thing for them and it may motivate young players to improve their skills and try becoming a pro too. But why should I watch their games instead of, say, those of pro players on Wbaduk? What go material are they producing that we, the rank and file, can use and enjoy?

I'd like very much to go through Ali's, Ilya's or Pavol's games with their comments. This would of course be a good way to learn more about go but also about them, their style, personality, preferences, relationship to go, etc. In other words, make these pros real for me!
Author:  Knotwilg [ Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone give a darn about go in the West?
On one hand I am disappointed about the lack of exposure the European top players generate for themselves. A notable exception used to be Antti Tormanen but he seems to have discovered the communicating vessels of writing about go and becoming better at it: his great blog has been defunct for more than a year now. So that's the other side of the coin and it seems that promotion and marketing should be left to the organizing bodies. Indeed, Cristiano Ronaldo didn't think about making a persona back when he juggled the ball as a teenager. The environment in which his image could thrive was there already.

When the institutions are as weak as those of European Go, disappointment is bound to occur. We need a stronger base and a stronger top. They go hand in hand. A stronger base will generate more and better players. More exposure for the top will attract more newcomers. I'm afraid though it's a lost battle against Minecraft and all.
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