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Favorite move(s) from the AlphaGo vs. Lee Sedol showmatch? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12895 |
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Author: | Solomon [ Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:06 pm ] |
Post subject: | Favorite move(s) from the AlphaGo vs. Lee Sedol showmatch? |
What were some of your favorite moves from the AlphaGo vs. Lee Sedol showmatch? I have a pretty good idea on two moves that are probably crowd favorites, but I'm sure other moves played in this incredible showmatch caught your attention. For your convenience, I looked through all 5 games and put up diagrams on the moves that I think caused the most reaction from the spectators online (I was watching these games on KGS, Tygem, Baduk TV's stream, DeepMind's stream, and AGA's stream). If I'm missing a move you want to discuss, feel free to add to discussion and I'll add it to this post as well. I'll think about this over lunch and add my own favorite moves later. Game 1 (AlphaGo (W) vs. Lee Sedol (B)) Game 2 (AlphaGo (B) vs. Lee Sedol (W)) Game 3 (AlphaGo (W) vs. Lee Sedol (B)) Game 4 (AlphaGo (B) vs. Lee Sedol (W)) Game 5 (AlphaGo (W) vs. Lee Sedol (B)) |
Author: | Solomon [ Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:39 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Favorite move(s) from the AlphaGo vs. Lee Sedol showmatc |
During lunch, I was thinking about some of the moves I posted, and I think (one of) my favorite moves has to be move 15 in game 2. Everyone criticized this move because of its aji-keshi nature, and I am not saying that it is not aji-keshi. However, way later in the game, it turned out that the exchange made from this move ended up benefiting Black. Was it mere coincidence, or did AlphaGo eerily read THAT far ahead to know that this exchange would turn out to be a useful one? Or did AlphaGo perhaps just play it out to simplify the game, and somehow force Lee Sedol to play in a way to make it a useful exchange? I also have this feeling that, if this was game 1, and AlphaGo played this move, the commentators would have been MUCH harsher on this move and begin to question AlphaGo's playing strength. However, because it was the second game and after AlphaGo established its dominance from game 1, the commentators were more reserved in pointing out AlphaGo's mistakes (unless it was really obvious like the moves played after move 78 in game 4, or a ko threat getting burned which was a common theme with AlphaGo) and I found that to be quite amusing as well. There's nothing spectacular in the move itself, but a combination of people's reaction to it and the questions it raises up makes it a move I will certainly remember for years to come. Here's Baduk TV's reaction and thoughts on the move, and here was the kibitz on KGS when move 15 was played live: Code: fluidistic [-]: what's that move?
gooooo [?]: wow weird Shana [?]: lee sedol looked uncomfortable in that cam danielhast [?]: ...is this joseki? escudero [3k]: d10 maybe to prepare attack at l4? covert: that looks... strange glasszee [3k]: ... Anatoly [2d?]: wow LordTushi [9k?]: q5?! fluidistic [-]: ko threat lost? Anatoly [2d?]: what? Rankachan [6k]: q5 is joseki ? njs [1d]: ?! Prime [2k]: LMAO USSRMan [3d]: yup, inventing new fusekis Sachan [?]: wow feeldabern [4d]: q5 is a normal exchange but very early Ephidel [1k]: what? Sachan [?]: this is interesting~ njs [1d]: Im expecting a new joseki revolution feeldabern [4d]: alphago really loves to make these exchanges cxcv: L4/ K4,etc looks a bit concentrated Sachan [?]: alphago is so aggressive haha glasszee [3k]: b begins endgame XiJinping2 [7k?]: This is the start of the New Fuseki Era, people Prime [2k]: we should just let this bot come up with new fuseki for the future Ephidel [1k]: very computer move Jumadan [?]: tenuki now? feeldabern [4d]: w can't tenuki this Tictactoe [-]: q5 is a common follow-up, it's kind of kikashi in this pattern Garp [11k]: is there yet a god analsis of yesterday match? could leer won ? feeldabern [4d]: s7 or r7 for w are common okiol [1k]: ok, so let's see... in the fan hui games there were some criticism that alphago were making exchanges like these too early - let's see if lee can actually abuse that LordTushi [9k?]: Yeah, q5 is common. It's just very early XiJinping2 [7k?]: Thanks, Tactictoe USSRMan [3d]: i agree, very computer-like move, humans dont like making these exchanges because it is not flexible GoIngo [?]: will we see moyo game by alha today? Jumadan [?]: why not feeldabern? GoIngo [?]: alpha LongLost [7k]: DeepMind explainer is ruining my romanticism of AlphaGo! Silence. glasszee [3k]: after D10, unlikely escudero [3k]: isn't this just forcing exchange? it removes some aji though bert [?]: q6 not good for w now? feeldabern [4d]: black push and cut is very severe highhand [5k]: b q5 interesting, attacking a strong group XiJinping2 [7k?]: Isn't C6 in danger? Or does N4 make C6 okay? feeldabern [4d]: so w will answer in some way buhaypa [3k]: Is 7.5 komi usual? Seems like a huge burden gooooo [?]: I wanted to see Lees reaction to this move zavion [2k]: romanticism of alphago? u in love with skynet? covert: lee connects USSRMan [3d]: c6 is kadoban [?]: 7.5 is standard komi for chinese rules USSRMan [3d]: c6 is light Tictactoe [-]: extending to j3 is walking head on towards a solid f3 stone, and might invite m3 Jumadan [?]: is it big enough that early? aab [?]: Korean BadukTV stream and some brief English translations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bATCEcRbBzE https://twitter.com/askakorean wolvie [?]: Yeah, they cut away from his reaction in the stream :/ buhaypa [3k]: Ah ok thanks okiol [1k]: USSR, the theory behind these "mistimed" and sometimes just bad exchanges based on how the board looked, was that alphago just didn't have understanding over the position enough, and just played common moves |
Author: | yoyoma [ Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Favorite move(s) from the AlphaGo vs. Lee Sedol showmatc |
Solomon wrote: During lunch, I was thinking about some of the moves I posted, and I think (one of) my favorite moves has to be move 15 in game 2. Everyone criticized this move because of its aji-keshi nature, and I am not saying that it is not aji-keshi. However, way later in the game, it turned out that the exchange made from this move ended up benefiting Black. Was it mere coincidence, or did AlphaGo eerily read THAT far ahead to know that this exchange would turn out to be a useful one? Or did AlphaGo perhaps just play it out to simplify the game, and somehow force Lee Sedol to play in a way to make it a useful exchange? I also have this feeling that, if this was game 1, and AlphaGo played this move, the commentators would have been MUCH harsher on this move and begin to question AlphaGo's playing strength. However, because it was the second game and after AlphaGo established its dominance from game 1, the commentators were more reserved in pointing out AlphaGo's mistakes (unless it was really obvious like the moves played after move 78 in game 4, or a ko threat getting burned which was a common theme with AlphaGo) and I found that to be quite amusing as well. There's nothing spectacular in the move itself, but a combination of people's reaction to it and the questions it raises up makes it a move I will certainly remember for years to come. Timing of exchanges like this is always difficult, and it's also a popular subject of debate. But I think many times including here it doesn't make much difference in the grand scheme of winning or losing games. I don't believe for one second that AlphaGo knows that this move is correct in a perfect play sort of way. But I do believe AlphaGo would tend to prefer this forcing move from the center of the board instead of forcing moves on the right side. And I also think we can see AlphaGo in general likes to make forcing exchanges earlier than necessary sometimes. I thought AlphaGo's previous move, tenuki to form a Chinese formation on the top was much more interesting than the forcing move. It counts as one of my favorite moves from AlphaGo. My other favorite AlphaGo moves are the usual suspects of Game 1 invading the right side, and Game 2 5th line shoulder hit. Outside those individual moves, I was relieved AlphaGo didn't play many more nonsense forcing moves than it actually did. The ones in Game 4 were not too many and actually served to make the sequence where Lee Sedol had turned the game much more dramatic. The atmosphere was an all-knowing bot playing moves that looked bad but end up working, so during the confusion I felt fear that maybe we're missing something and there was going to be some epic squeeze. But it slowly became more clear that Lee Sedol was winning. And then the wedge in the lower left was just funny. Game 5 walked a bit closer to my fears, that AlphaGo would get into a good position and play many nonsense moves, making both itself and Lee Sedol look bad. I'm relieved it didn't play more than a handful of those sort of moves. |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Favorite move(s) from the AlphaGo vs. Lee Sedol showmatc |
Hmmmm. One of the users online now is Google[Bot]. Big Bot is watching! |
Author: | Fedya [ Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Favorite move(s) from the AlphaGo vs. Lee Sedol showmatc |
Nobody's favorite move was AlphaGo's resignation in Game 4? ![]() |
Author: | Uberdude [ Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:40 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Favorite move(s) from the AlphaGo vs. Lee Sedol showmatc |
Solomon wrote: During lunch, I was thinking about some of the moves I posted, and I think (one of) my favorite moves has to be move 15 in game 2. Everyone criticized this move because of its aji-keshi nature, and I am not saying that it is not aji-keshi. However, way later in the game, it turned out that the exchange made from this move ended up benefiting Black. Was it mere coincidence, or did AlphaGo eerily read THAT far ahead to know that this exchange would turn out to be a useful one? Or did AlphaGo perhaps just play it out to simplify the game, and somehow force Lee Sedol to play in a way to make it a useful exchange? During the KGS kibitz, maybe a bit later, Sweetrip 9d (who I think is Andy Liu?) made the comment that answering with the kosumi above could have been better, and was more his style of move and (possibly inaccurate paraphrasing) he doesn't understand/agree why everyone else tends to solid connect as the default answer. Andy Liu tends to play quite low and territorial and then invade sabaki style. He also made the point that if white had played this kosumi then black's 5th line shoulder hit on the right side would have been less effective (for example in one variation it would allow white to connect up and defend the right side territory with one fewer move). On the flip side, the solid connection means a future white attack on the black group is more powerful, so maybe black wouldn't have bothered to defend his group at k4 later. I think if Lee and AlphaGo played this game again Lee might not solid connect again (and indeed he varied the one point jump to kosumi to 4th line to discourage a black tenuki in game 5), or would at least spend longer thinking about the other choices to answer the peep. Also is another downside of the kosumi that p2 is more like sente for black (with r3 being the tesuji follow up) so white's m3 invasion aji is lessened? Anyway as Solomon (did you change your name from Araban?) this peep raises many interesting questions and shows it's not easy for a top pro to demonstrate that what would be called a bad aji keshi move at cursory glance is truly bad. Edit: I suppose I should also watch An Younggil's review of this game, as the accompanying sgf includes some variations about the peep. I also seem to recall him saying Lee should have directly attacked at k4 instead of d10, though presumably he didn't out of fear white would ignore to play moves like d10 and r14 and the group is still not dead (Li Zhe 6p showed this variation half way down https://massgoblog.wordpress.com/2016/0 ... lee-sedol/). |
Author: | Uberdude [ Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:13 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Favorite move(s) from the AlphaGo vs. Lee Sedol showmatc |
Btw, illluck (or other people who can read Chinese) the latest translated Li Zhe post mentions Facebook's Yunadong Tian's analysis of game 4 move 78, is that this: http://www.chinaz.com/news/2016/0315/512626.shtml Could you kindly provide a translation/summary? Google's translation is actually not so bad: |
Author: | xed_over [ Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:02 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Favorite move(s) from the AlphaGo vs. Lee Sedol showmatc |
Uberdude wrote: Btw, illluck (or other people who can read Chinese) the latest translated Li Zhe post mentions Facebook's Yunadong Tian's analysis of game 4 move 78, is that this: http://www.chinaz.com/news/2016/0315/512626.shtml Could you kindly provide a translation/summary? Li Zhe's posts are also being translated here: https://massgoblog.wordpress.com/ |
Author: | wolfking [ Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:43 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Favorite move(s) from the AlphaGo vs. Lee Sedol showmatc |
Uberdude wrote: Btw, illluck (or other people who can read Chinese) the latest translated Li Zhe post mentions Facebook's Yunadong Tian's analysis of game 4 move 78, is that this: http://www.chinaz.com/news/2016/0315/512626.shtml Could you kindly provide a translation/summary? Google's translation is actually not so bad: Here is my translation. I omitted last the graph and last couple of lines. |
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