Life In 19x19 :: Rate of improvement for an adult learner (N=1)

Age: 20 when this account started. Note: I played some ~10 games on another KGS account(that I dont know anymore, so I didnt Include it) some years earlier.
In this List #of games is ranked 19x19 KGS games only(bacause most of the unranked in the early days are 9x9, I dont want to filter them manually)):

Rank/#games/date

29k?/1/2014-05-01
21k?/2/2014-05-01
19k?/3/2014-05-01
15k/4/2014-05-01
14k/7/2014-05-02
13k/18/2014-05-10
12k/38/2014-05-18
11k/112/2014-06-14
10k/178/2014-08-01
9k/205/2014-10-21
8k/366/2015-03-27 Around here I startet playing over the board once a week
7k/515/2015-05-23
6k/653/2015-07-21
5k/733/2015-09-23
4k/788/2015-11-25
3k/854/2016-01-29

as of now, I have 951 rated games on my account(1083 games total, so an additional 132 unranked games, many of which are 9x9 or having fun/ traing handicap go slaughtering weak Mfgo versions on high handycap) and have yet to achieve 2k on KGS. But I think the number of games needed to achieve the next rank varies rather erratically, as you need fewer games to make a jump when you play less, so the improvement is shown quicker on the rank, when you improved but not played much in the meantime.

If anyone else want to caontribute, I think http://kgs.gosquares.net/ helps a lot, counting those games.

Author:	jeromie [ Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Rate of improvement for an adult learner (N=1)
One of the things people frequently wonder about go is how much time and effort it takes to improve. This obviously varies a lot from one person to the next, but I thought it would be interesting to share some statistics about my own progress. I downloaded all of the games I have played on either KGS or IGS (this represents 95% or more of my 19x19 games) and wrote a program to compile some basic statistics about my rate of improvement. I've pasted the results below: it shows the date that I first reached each new rank on KGS and the total number of games I had played before I reached that point. None (1, '2011-04-23') 24k (3, '2011-04-24') 23k (6, '2011-04-24') 22k (10, '2011-04-26') 21k (27, '2011-05-17') 20k (33, '2011-06-01') 19k (34, '2011-06-23') 18k (36, '2011-06-24') 17k (37, '2011-06-25') 15k (43, '2011-09-03') 14k (44, '2012-02-08') 16k (48, '2012-02-19') 13k (56, '2013-02-15') 12k (73, '2014-01-28') 11k (74, '2014-01-31') 10k (75, '2014-02-04') 9k (77, '2014-02-07') 8k (87, '2014-03-08') 7k (269, '2015-01-29') 6k (325, '2015-03-09') 5k (528, '2015-12-08') Some observations and caveats: The date shows the first time I achieved a particular rank. Realistically, I sometimes moved into a higher rank and fell back down for a while before I could stay there. The rank shown is my KGS rank, but games on either server count towards the total games played. This obviously doesn't take into account books I read, 9x9 games played on my phone, offline games, or other sources of learning. I didn't filter games by time control, ranked vs unranked, or any other metric. I was 29 when I played my first game of go in 2011, so the bulk of my progress took place in my early 30s. It took three attempts to start go before it really stuck, hence the small number of games relative to the time it took to reach 8k. Looking at the number of games played, it appears I improved very rapidly up to 8k before progress slowed considerably. Looking at the time that passed, I've been improving about 2 stones a year since I got to 9k. The total number of games I looked at is now 668.

Author:	EdLee [ Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:
Hi Jeromie, Thanks very much for sharing this data, especially your starting age. Another very important piece of info is the number of 'good' tsumego problems you did (and exactly how you approached them) -- as important as the number of your games, plotted over time. ( Which you mentioned as not including other forms of learning. Re: post 139 . ) Thanks. ( What's the N in N=1 ? )

Author:	sparky314 [ Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rate of improvement for an adult learner (N=1)
Thanks Jeromie. To add to your sample size, I've compiled a list of games I've played. I’ve played a lot against the computer on 9x9 (igowin, crazy stone) before starting on KGS. But had no prior experience playing against people. Games below include Tygem (48 games), IGS (45 games), and KGS (all others). Rank is games played until hitting given rank in KGS. Games Age: 30 None (1, 7/28/14) 24k (2, 7/28/14) 23k (5, 7/30/14) 21k (6, 7/30/14) 19k (7, 7/30/14) 14k (8, 8/25/14) There was a break here, and I didn’t play again until March 2015. 13k (15, 3/5/15) 12k (24, 3/6/15) 11k (64, 3/18/15) 10k (94, 3/30/15) Age 31 9k (161, 6/14/15) 8k (207, 7/28/15) 7k (230, 8/29/15) 6k (278, 11/3/15) Play games until January, but took a 2 month break between Jan and Mar 5k (332, 3/7/16) Current total games (as of 4/10): 362 Tsumego/Tesuji I’ve also done at least 6k tsumego/tesuji problems (including duplicates), reading the following books: goproblems.com (when I was DDK, I probably did a few hundred, won’t touch this site now) Graded Go Problems for Beginners, v2 (three or four times?) Graded Go Problems for Beginners, v3 (two or three times?) 1001 Life and Death Problems (twice) Get Strong at Tesuji (once, but starting my second read through now) Tesuji Other books I’ve read In the Beginning Opening Theory Made Easy Attack and Defense Fundamental Principles of Go Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go I’ve flipped through a few other books as well. Other I’ve also watched most of dwyrin's professional reviews, some of Haylee’s videos, and several lectures at the internet go school.

Author:	EdLee [ Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:
Hi Sparky, Thanks for the data.

Author:	jeromie [ Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
EdLee wrote: ...Another very important piece of info is the number of 'good' tsumego problems you did... I've worked through Graded Go Problems for Beginners volumes 2 and 3 multiple times. I'm partially through volume 4 now. I've read all of James Davies' Tesuji, though I stalled out partway through Live and Death. (I hope to revisit that soon.) I've started the Tesuji book from the Nihon Kiin pocket series, and I've done a lot of problems on goproblems.com (some of these are significantly lower quality). Based on the other post you linked, I'm starting to work through the problems on the GoChild website. I've read several other books as well, but they weren't collections of problems. I like doing problems, so I'll usually space them throughout the day when I need a mental break. I generally try to mix a source of easier problems that reinforce concepts I already know with some harder problems that stretch my reading skills. EdLee wrote: ( What's the N in N=1 ? ) Sample size. In other words, this isn't any sort of statistically valid observation on common trends. It's just my personal journey. In particular, it indicates nothing about how fast it is possible for an adult to advance. My study methods have been based on my own whims and desires rather than a concerted effort to maximize my progress. Another important factor in my own journey, and one that often gets overlooked when talking about progress, is whether a person is prepared to learn when he or she sits down to play. The slowdown I saw around 6k is not uncommon, but I think it was exacerbated by a difficult period at work that caused me to approach go as a form of escapism. I played a lot of games in that period, but I don't think I was in a frame of mind that encouraged learning.

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Rate of improvement for an adult learner (N=1) http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13052	Page 1 of 1

Author:	EdLee [ Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:
Hi Jeromie, Thanks, and good luck!

Author:	cyndane [ Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rate of improvement for an adult learner (N=1)
FWIW: Im at about 560 games and 5k. Also in my early 30's and started in 2013.

Author:	wingly [ Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rate of improvement for an adult learner (N=1)
Im currently 28, I start play on October 2015. Current rating: OGS : 11-12k KGS : 8-9k

Author:	Schachus [ Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rate of improvement for an adult learner (N=1)
Age: 20 when this account started. Note: I played some ~10 games on another KGS account(that I dont know anymore, so I didnt Include it) some years earlier. In this List #of games is ranked 19x19 KGS games only(bacause most of the unranked in the early days are 9x9, I dont want to filter them manually)): Rank/#games/date 29k?/1/2014-05-01 21k?/2/2014-05-01 19k?/3/2014-05-01 15k/4/2014-05-01 14k/7/2014-05-02 13k/18/2014-05-10 12k/38/2014-05-18 11k/112/2014-06-14 10k/178/2014-08-01 9k/205/2014-10-21 8k/366/2015-03-27 Around here I startet playing over the board once a week 7k/515/2015-05-23 6k/653/2015-07-21 5k/733/2015-09-23 4k/788/2015-11-25 3k/854/2016-01-29 as of now, I have 951 rated games on my account(1083 games total, so an additional 132 unranked games, many of which are 9x9 or having fun/ traing handicap go slaughtering weak Mfgo versions on high handycap) and have yet to achieve 2k on KGS. But I think the number of games needed to achieve the next rank varies rather erratically, as you need fewer games to make a jump when you play less, so the improvement is shown quicker on the rank, when you improved but not played much in the meantime. If anyone else want to caontribute, I think http://kgs.gosquares.net/ helps a lot, counting those games.

Author:	Schachus [ Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rate of improvement for an adult learner (N=1)
Schachus wrote: Age: 20 when this account started. Note: I played some ~10 games on another KGS account(that I dont know anymore, so I didnt Include it) some years earlier. In this List #of games is ranked 19x19 KGS games only(bacause most of the unranked in the early days are 9x9, I dont want to filter them manually)): Rank/#games/date 29k?/1/2014-05-01 21k?/2/2014-05-01 19k?/3/2014-05-01 15k/4/2014-05-01 14k/7/2014-05-02 13k/18/2014-05-10 12k/38/2014-05-18 11k/112/2014-06-14 10k/178/2014-08-01 9k/205/2014-10-21 8k/366/2015-03-27 Around here I startet playing over the board once a week 7k/515/2015-05-23 6k/653/2015-07-21 5k/733/2015-09-23 4k/788/2015-11-25 3k/854/2016-01-29 as of now, I have 951 rated games on my account(1083 games total, so an additional 132 unranked games, many of which are 9x9 or having fun/ traing handicap go slaughtering weak Mfgo versions on high handycap) and have yet to achieve 2k on KGS. But I think the number of games needed to achieve the next rank varies rather erratically, as you need fewer games to make a jump when you play less, so the improvement is shown quicker on the rank, when you improved but not played much in the meantime. If anyone else want to caontribute, I think http://kgs.gosquares.net/ helps a lot, counting those games. Finally I can add: 2k/1127/2016-10-12

Author:	sybob [ Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rate of improvement for an adult learner (N=1)
jeromie wrote: - Looking at the time that passed, I've been improving about 2 stones a year since I got to 9k. Thank you for your frankness. Nice post. While my situation is different, the quote above struck me. I am now 57 years old. Starting 6 years ago. While I am not at your level (yet?), I also made on average about 2 stones progress per year at my local club and on KGS. I play online and over the board, but not that many games as some of you. I experience the same: progress up to about 8k can be made without playing very much, to progress further it takes more time & effort.

Author:	Gotraskhalana [ Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rate of improvement for an adult learner (N=1)
Starting age: 38 In my first year I advanced to about 8k ogs by playing about 3000 mostly very fast games, doing gochild problems and reading some single-digit number of books, most of which I found too hard (especially reading the diagrams) and attending some lectures in go clubs. In my second year, my rank did not really improve apart from fluctuations. During this second year, I played about 500 mostly very fast games, read some more books, signed up with Guo Juan's website, stopped playing real-life tournaments after catching a very bad flu when every single opponent coughed at me over the board during the last tournament I attended, moved to a city without the nice go lectures, studied some basic joseki for the first time and made a break of three months. About 1500 of my games are 19x19 and have time-controls that you would recognize as reasonable.

Author:	joellercoaster [ Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rate of improvement for an adult learner (N=1)
sybob wrote: progress up to about 8k can be made without playing very much, to progress further it takes more time & effort. No longer sure if what I am doing counts as "time and effort". I am lately doing super-basic tsumego on the train, and I've watched all the Nick Sibicky videos on YouTube and now half-read a small handful of books. Been playing since I got married three years ago (at age 38), and in that time I've played 289 games on OGS. This feels like a tiny fraction of the numbers I read about here, but my rating continues to gently rise. I don't think I'm disagreeing with you particularly - at some point no doubt I will hit a wall, and I think in the grand scheme of things 8k and 5k are basically the same rank. But it also feels like I haven't put effort in yet; everything I have done so far has felt like low-commitment fun. (Obviously I am reading the "people never reaching 1d" thread with great interest, though not because 1d is my goal (I have no goal, I just really enjoy the Go journey). It seems inevitable that just cruising and doing what feels recreational will stall somewhere. Can I "do the work" when the going gets tough, having just sorta noodled my way forward to that point? Will I mind that I'm not getting better when it happens? I think the answers are "I don't know" and "yes", so interesting times are ahead. Also - have Go Baby on the way in the very near future, maybe whether I want to study or not will not be up to me!)

Author:	SoDesuNe [ Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rate of improvement for an adult learner (N=1)
Cool thread =) Starting age 22, KGS games, except otherwise stated. When I was starting I played much more frequently in the Go Club, around 10 games a week. First account: Code: 17k / 3 / 2009-05 16k / 21 / 2009-06 8k / 86 / 2009-11 (long time "?" on KGS inbetween) 7k / 97 / 2009-12 6k / 203 / 2010-05 5k / 223 / 2010-06 (6k EGF) 4k / 245 / 2010-07 3k / 477 / 2010-12 2k / 639 / 2011-06 1d / 695 / 2011-12 Second account: Code: 2k / 46 / 2011-12 1k / 126 / 2012-03 (4k EGF) 1d / 195 / 2013-09 (2k EGF) Third account (Tygem): Code: 1d / 18 / 2015-04 2d / 22 / 2015-06

Author:	Majordomo [ Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rate of improvement for an adult learner (N=1)
Apologies in advance for my dreadful formatting. Background: 26 years old. Learned the rules in December 2015, then played Cosumi online on 5x5, 6x6 and 9x9 for a bit. Got a board and stones for Christmas then started playing some 13x13 on that and a lot of 9x9 online, don’t have full stats on that. Also a lot of 9x9 against GnuGo on tablet during commutes, no clue how many (I'd guess in the several hundreds). Counting only 19x19 games - February 8 games (8 total) - 17k IGS - March 31 games (39 total) - 14k KGS, 18k OGS - April 60 games (99 total) - 13k OGS - May 26 games (125 total) - 12k OGS, also played some Tygem but never ranked - June 29 games (154 total) - Lots of ranking, started playing on KGS only. Dates: 8th - 9k 12th - 8k 13th - 7k 14th - 6k 18th - 4k 20th - 3k 21th - 4k 23rd - 5k - July 8 games (162 total) - 5k - August 27 games (189 total) - dropped to 6k then back to 5k - September 24 games (213 total) - 5k kgs, 7k OGS (played back on OGS a bit), 5k IGS - October 3 games (216 total) - We’ll see (3k on Crazy Stone Android app heh, for whatever that is worth) Books and stuff (in order) - Cho Chikun's Elementary Life and Death (900 problems, brute force reading, took ages) - Lessons in the fundamentals of Go - Attack and Defense (didn't do problems thoroughly) - Tesuji (didn't do problems thoroughly) - Level Up Review 1 - Level Up Review 2 - Jump Level Up 1 - Jump Level Up 2 - Jump Level Up 3 - Jump Level up 4 - Jump Level up 5 (a few pages left)

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Author:	wingly [ Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rate of improvement for an adult learner (N=1)
I am 29 years old now, since I posted on April stuck on 11-12k. Now another October 2016 marks my one year journey, currently I am sitting on 1k-1d OGS.