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Best Shusaku Games to study
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13506		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Dedalus89 [ Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  Best Shusaku Games to study
Hey, I wanted to study some Shusaku Games but there are quite a lot of them. Can anybody point out some particularly notable, significant, or instructive games from Shusaku.
Author:  sybob [ Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Shusaku Games to study
Hello Dedalus,
Did we play the other day on KGS?
If so, my reply would be that it does not matter. Playing more games and getting a better grip on basics will probably help you more than replaying and studying pro games, considering your current level. It is my experience that, if the difference between one's level with the pro level is too large, one hardly learns and improves because it is often (very/too) difficult to understand pro moves for kyu players like me.
Just browse this forum some more for beginner tips.
Author:  Dedalus89 [ Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Shusaku Games to study
Yes I think that must have been me. I realize I may not learn that much at my level, however it might at least give me an idea for shape and direction of play.

Mainly though I have a nice go board and nobody to play with in person. I want to, well, play with it and playing pro games sounds fun to me. If I end up bored with it I'll just stop and do something else. But something about playing a historical game that was actually played by somebody like Shusaku (or others) on my own board sounds fun I suppose. Also I was thinking of trying to memorize a game. No idea how hard that is, so only one way to find out. Maybe it's silly. I certainly won't stop doing things like playing games and learning basics.
Author:  DrStraw [ Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Shusaku Games to study
sybob wrote:
Hello Dedalus,
Did we play the other day on KGS?
If so, my reply would be that it does not matter. Playing more games and getting a better grip on basics will probably help you more than replaying and studying pro games, considering your current level. It is my experience that, if the difference between one's level with the pro level is too large, one hardly learns and improves because it is often (very/too) difficult to understand pro moves for kyu players like me.
Just browse this forum some more for beginner tips.


What would your reply by if you had not played on KGS?

I second this opinion. It doesn't matter. They are all worth studying. Perhaps you should quickly play through them all and then study those that pique your interest.
Author:  sybob [ Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Shusaku Games to study
DrStraw wrote:
What would your reply by if you had not played on KGS?

I probably would't have replied at all.
I am a kyu player. I would probably leave it to better players to give Dedalus advice.
Having played and 'knowing' him (or her), and seeing his way of playing, I felt more justified to reply.
Author:  sybob [ Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Shusaku Games to study
Dedalus89 wrote:
Yes I think that must have been me. I realize I may not learn that much at my level, however it might at least give me an idea for shape and direction of play.

Mainly though I have a nice go board and nobody to play with in person. I want to, well, play with it and playing pro games sounds fun to me. If I end up bored with it I'll just stop and do something else. But something about playing a historical game that was actually played by somebody like Shusaku (or others) on my own board sounds fun I suppose. Also I was thinking of trying to memorize a game. No idea how hard that is, so only one way to find out. Maybe it's silly. I certainly won't stop doing things like playing games and learning basics.

Ah, I see. And yes, it is fun.
For beginner tips on this forum, you may want to start here: http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=667.
Author:  Dedalus89 [ Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Shusaku Games to study
sybob wrote:
DrStraw wrote:
What would your reply by if you had not played on KGS?

I probably would't have replied at all.
I am a kyu player. I would probably leave it to better players to give Dedalus advice.
Having played and 'knowing' him (or her), and seeing his way of playing, I felt more justified to reply.


I'm a he and yes I pretty much suck at go for the moment. 20+ kyu definitely. So I understand why you'd give the advice you gave.

Either way I'll just pick a random one out and see if I find it fun or just utterly confusing.
Author:  eyecatcher [ Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Shusaku Games to study
i remember when i was kind of 15 kyu or something, i had the same wish to study Shusaku... and i did, i did not understand anything... but it was such a pleasurable experience i did not want to miss.

Sometimes stronger players are quick with "do that" or "don`t do that" ... and i`m sure on a practical level, regarding the question what is good to learn the basics and what is not... it might be right to say "it does not make much sense at your level to study pro games" ... or "it makes more sense to do that or this".

But we should never forget the irrational, passionate aspect of our existence... if one has a strong desire to study Shusaku, maybe it does not do much on a practical level, but maybe psychologically one gets a huge motivation boost ( i did).

(sorry for my a bit clumsy english... think u get the point)
Author:  sybob [ Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Shusaku Games to study
Well said, eyecatcher, never mind the language.
And he also has a nice go board he wants to use and enjoy.
Author:  skydyr [ Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Shusaku Games to study
I'd also point out that you're not a professional, and neither are most anyone else on this forum. You don't play go for money and have need to stay at the top to maintain your income. Everyone here plays, studies, and reads about go for their personal enjoyment, and the correct way to approach go is whatever way makes it fun and interesting for you.

That said, I'm a big proponent of subconscious learning. I think it would be quite valuable to play over (especially with a board, placing the stones) professional games of any kind to get a feel for the kinds of moves they play. You may not think you understand anything, but part of your mind remembers the moves and will later regurgitate them as moves to consider without you knowing where they come from. A lot of stronger players will say that when they think about a particular board situation certain points just stand out as places to consider, and the reason is that their intuition has been trained and is pruning all the possible moves for good candidates before their conscious mind even considers the problem. Aside from this, asking very basic questions about a game like 'why is there a fight going on?', 'why did they stop fighting there and play here?', 'why did he just abandon those 5 stones?', and so forth can be as instructive on attitude as the nuts and bolts of specific tesujis or joseki and such.
Author:  jeromie [ Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Shusaku Games to study
A few people shared some favorite games in a recent(ish) forum post: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12941

Playing pro games is a great way to enjoy your board. Have fun!
Author:  Koosh [ Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Shusaku Games to study
While it's been awhile, I personally liked studying the games between Shusaku and Yasui Senchi.

Either way, I suggest that you keep a separate notebook and mark off the games that you've replayed/studied from all sources/books. In 5 years, you won't remember which ones you've seen and it helps to have that record.

The game commentary is going to be important. If you're planning on purchasing/using a book, Invincible is the one to get for Shusaku's games. For modern games, I like Relentless. Switching back and forth between the two would give you an interesting juxtapositional experience indeed.
Author:  xed_over [ Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Shusaku Games to study
DrStraw wrote:
I second this opinion. It doesn't matter. They are all worth studying. Perhaps you should quickly play through them all and then study those that pique your interest.

I agree.

I enjoy "studying" pro games (by some definition of "study"). And some are more interesting that others, but you kinda have to figure that out for yourself.

You might start with ones that are most famous -- even non-Shusaku games :)

Or, if you're a Hikaru no Go fan... play through all of those games (since they are all real professional games). There's a website that list them all.
Author:  Koosh [ Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Shusaku Games to study
We all tend to get stuck in a "oh, you're asking a question - you must want to know how to get better" mindset. However, there are a lot of people who want to play or do Go related things because they enjoy it.

That's also to say that there are people who don't have the time/resolve/interest/facility with games to become stronger than 20k. I say this; let 'em have fun already! :mrgreen: To quote a friend: "I'd rather have 5 million 20 kyus over 1000 1 dan players."

This is not directed at anyone in particular. I've noticed that there is a distinct split between these two personalities in clubs. It's good to cater to both, in my opinion, while it's also important for the not so serious type (as I've described above) to be understanding when the other personality does not want to play/review games.
Author:  Kirby [ Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Shusaku Games to study
If you are interested in Shusaku, just buy Invincible. It has nice historical context for a number of games. If you are interested in history, it's a good book for that, too.
Author:  jeromie [ Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Shusaku Games to study
If you have the funds to do so, I second Kirby's suggestion. It is a well done book. I also prefer not being attached to a computer when I'm playing a game on a physical board, though that's a matter of preference.
Author:  Dedalus89 [ Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best Shusaku Games to study
Thanks for all the advice. I kind of want to try to respond to everybody but that might hard. Let me just say that I DO want to improve my game and playing through pro games may not be the best way to do it. However I also want to have fun. I agree with skydyr about subconscious learning as well. Even if I don't even know what or even that I am learning, I think it's likely that my subconscious is picking something up even if I'm not at all conscious of it.

In any case I thank everyone for their advice! I look forward to having tons of fun and improving my awful playing.
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