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Chess Prodigy http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13666	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Subotai [ Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Chess Prodigy
I saw this interesting interview on Magnus Carlsen 2 years ago. It immediately made me think of Lee Changho who became world #1 at 16. I wonder if they are similar in personality and cognitive aptitude. Magnus seems to have a form of Asperger's and while I have heard stories of Lee's peculiarities I haven't watched any interviews with him on top of that I don't know Korean. Anyone have any input? I really hope that igo will get the recognition it deserves in the West and maybe we will have similar interviews on 60 minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZFS0kewLRQ

Author:	Anzu [ Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Chess Prodigy
Go books are starting to appear on the library shelves, and Go boards are becoming common in board game stores. When chess is discussed on the Internet, somebody often brings up Go these days. Just a matter of time

Author:	dfan [ Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Chess Prodigy
I have never seen any evidence that Carlsen has "a form of Asperger's" and I think it's irresponsible to describe him as such without the opinion of a professional. He's obviously not always 100% comfortable in social situations (hey, neither am I), but seems to handle life just fine. He's not the most gregarious grandmaster out there but he's not the most awkward either.

Author:	hyperpape [ Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Chess Prodigy
Is there actual evidence that either has Aspergers? A quick search suggests no for Carlsen, and returns next to nothing for Lee. (As I posted, I see dfan said something similar). Edit: "dfan", not "Dran". Yay for phones...

Author:	Subotai [ Sun Oct 09, 2016 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Chess Prodigy
I am a professional. Obviously I don't know what tests he has taken or what but from the original video I and other people had such an inclination that he might have a form of high functioning autism. I watched the more complete interview, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc_v9mTfhC8, and actually now have my doubts. Though as it is often the case when people have exceptional mental abilities there is a give and take dynamic. More importantly though is the similarity between such young super pros like Carlsen and Lee. In regards to Lee there is the famous anecdote that he couldn't tie his own shoes even into early adulthood and being so preoccupied with Go that he would often forget everyday aspects of life.

Author:	Anzu [ Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Chess Prodigy
I know three schizophrenics, all close friends. I was room mates with two of them. They all act perfectly normal, even though they hallucinate quite constantly (medication is ineffective). No matter how you look, the insanity just doesn't show. They seem like ordinary people. Surprised you were able to diagnose something from a video. Seems like a perfectly charming bloke to me.

Author:	Subotai [ Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Chess Prodigy
One of the most apparent aspects of people within the autism spectrum is a degree of ineptitude in social interactions. Lack of eye contact, lack of empathy, unawareness of social ques, ect. I did some further reading about Magnus and while his father claims that he doesn't not have autism, judging from some of his interviews there is definitely that possibility. Furthermore being within the autism spectrum isn't a bad thing as long as you can be functioning member of society, you just process information in a different fashion. Which leads me back to my original question the comparison of Magnus and Lee. Magnus apparently has a great memory but it has been stated that Lee had a very difficult time recreating his own games.

Author:	Jhyn [ Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Chess Prodigy
Subotai wrote: One of the most apparent aspects of people within the autism spectrum is a degree of ineptitude in social interactions. Lack of eye contact, lack of empathy, unawareness of social ques, ect. I looked at Magnus Carlsen playing a few games... If this is your standard for "lack of eye contact, lack of empathy, unawareness of social cues", I am a 100% dysfunctional individual.

Author:	Subotai [ Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Chess Prodigy
We all have varying degrees of psychological conditions it just depends on whether or not you fall within the "normal" spectrum. Anyone have insight on Lee Changho?

Author:	Uberdude [ Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Chess Prodigy
Tbh, I don't really think it's interesting or productive whether or not you label Lee Changho or Magnus Carlsen as autistic/aspergers. I feel there's too much categorisation, medicalisation and over-diagnosis of personality differences these days.

Author:	daal [ Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Chess Prodigy
Subotai wrote: I am a professional. Seriously? And you form and share your professional opinion about somebody without having met them? Seems amateurish to me.

Author:	EdLee [ Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:51 am ]
Post subject:
Quote: I am a professional. Please elaborate ?

Author:	Subotai [ Tue Oct 11, 2016 5:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Chess Prodigy
I am a medical doctor who while during my formal education focused on neuroscience and have even wrote papers on the autism spectrum. Once again this topic is not about me but about the relationship between psychological conditions and gifted go/chess players; specifically Carlsen and Lee. While I have a hunch that Carlsen might have a degree of autism it is just a hunch and of course not a firm medical diagnosis. Also I'm definitely not the first who has had such a hunch about Carlsen, this can be shown with a google search. This is just for the sake of conversation and debate. Please stay on topic.

Author:	topazg [ Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Chess Prodigy
I have watched many interviews with Magnus Carlsen. He is a very accomplished amateur footballer as a hobby (playing for a fairly strong regional team all the way until his chess career took over properly as a teenager - not totally irrelevant, football is a very social game at the amateur level), his eye contact is consistent, his easy humour and ability to mingle in social situations is clear from chess exhibitions (albeit often with other grandmasters he already knows). I have seen little evidence of aspergers in his public behaviour (FWIW, I haven't published any papers on the subject but I do have a teenage daughter with high functioning autism myself, and have had no choice but to research the subject to get educational support for her). He also has had a successful modelling career with G-Star RAW for some time, involving photo shoots and all the hobnobbing that comes with such a secondary income. Of course none of this precludes the possibility that he would get a diagnosis of aspergers, but for me it provides somewhat convincing argument that the OP's theory requires a far better base of evidence than a 2 minute cut-and-paste interview on Youtube. This feels more like a case of wanting to attach a condition to an exceptional performer to explain why they're so good at what they do (or perhaps offer us mortals an excuse for not being as competent) than any form of empirical analysis of data.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Chess Prodigy
daal wrote: Subotai wrote: I am a professional. Seriously? And you form and share your professional opinion about somebody without having met them? Seems amateurish to me. Most of us amateur go players have seen a professional go player glance at a board and make judgements in a few seconds that we amateurs could not make in a year if left to our own devices. And these professional judgements almost always turn out to be correct. Why can we not grant the same degree of perception and judgement to a medical professional? Mrs Banbeck is an attorney - a legal professional. We recently purchased a piece of property, and received a contract full of legalese. I looked at it and could barely understand it. I'm rather competent in the English language, and have access to a legal dictionary. All the individual words made sense, and the sentence structure was correct. But I'm an amateur at law. If I worked hard, I could get the gist of each paragraph. Mrs. Banbeck went through it quickly, telling me which paragraphs were relevant, which were gibberish, and which were probably unenforceable if ever contested. She was a professional making judgements at a glance, and, TTBOMK, was correct. My own profession is used and rare books. I'm continually frustrated when I go to estate sales and garage sales. The seller will often say that a particular collection of books is just the way the deceased left it. But I can look at a room full of books in about 10 seconds and tell you if someone has pulled the better books. I'm a professional, and I make accurate judgements at a glance. I can tell the seller that he is lying, ( and sometimes I do. ) The most amusing example of this was years ago when I was invited to buy an estate, and the seller swore that I was the first person that he had offered it to. At a glance I could see that it was leftovers, and that the better books were gone. But there was one exception: a collectible and mildly pornographic work. Most of my competitors would have bought that book if given the chance. The only one that would not was a bookstore owner whose specialty was Christianity. He was a bit of a prude. So I was able to tell the seller that not only had he already sold the better books to someone else, but I was able to tell him who. He was flabbergasted. It shocked him so much that he quit trying to lie. So it does not surprise me at all if a medical professional makes a quick judgement on limited information and is correct.

Author:	Subotai [ Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Chess Prodigy
Well thank you Joaz for being the first person not to attack me out right. The idea of people being gifted in chess, mathematics, music, ect. while also dabbling in "madness" is far from original. The fact that you can google Carlsen autism and find that his father made a statement that he does not have autism means that there were many people with the same idea. Having a psychological condition is not a bad or good thing, it is just an aspect of their character. Just as in go there are players who are territory oriented, influence oriented, aggressive or passive, is one better than the other? We could also assume that Carlsen and Lee are just super humans who are better than us in every way but it is more plausible that they have their own strengths and weaknesses. This is not my attempts to try to find an excuse for my own ineptitude at go but is in the spirit of trying to better understand the game and the people who play it.

Author:	hyperpape [ Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Chess Prodigy
Subotai wrote: Well thank you Joaz for being the first person not to attack me out right. Oh, brother . I just asked if this was more than speculation. And since you took that back after finishing a youtube interview, it seems like I asked the right question. The fact that other people have speculated just like you doesn't seem to change anything. I don't view Asperger's as something that a person has to be ashamed of, or necessarily something that a person suffers from. However, I do think it is more often right to not speculate about which conditions a public figure has. And it also seems bizarre to lump "being gifted in chess, mathematics, music, ect. while also dabbling in 'madness'" in with Aspergers. I'm also less persuaded by the sort of anecdotal "so many people in this field have Aspergers" comments like what Joaz says. I've known many people who have wondered if they had Aspergers or had others speculate about them, but only known one person I know[0] was diagnosed (probably some others were, but didn't mention it). Perhaps all of those people just never met the right doctor, but otherwise, I think there's a tendency for self-diagnosis or speculation about other people that seems off the mark. [0] Met in person. I've seen more people go by on various internet forums. Edit: wonder => have wondered; added word "comments"

Author:	sybob [ Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Chess Prodigy
Joaz Banbeck wrote: So it does not surprise me at all if a medical professional makes a quick judgement on limited information and is correct. Everyone his own views, but I beg to differ. I don't have a medical or psychological background, but in my profession (like most professions, I reckon), a professional learns to not express a view or opinion unless he/she has an adequate basis and adequate information to form and also to express any such views and opinions. Without it, you refrain from expressing them, most certainly so in the open/public. Also, while I in no way compare myself to persons like Carlsen and Changho, as both an ordinary citizen and sometime patient, I do not appreciate any docter who forms his opinion - read diagnosis - without proper and adequate intake/investigation. With all due respect, but this is different to trading books. In the medical field, there are reasons why second opinions are requested, even if the first opinion is 'professional'. Also, I think there's no need to stereotype people, even if they are more or less a public figure. To elaborate some more: I play go sometimes with a person who was professionally diagnosed as, and claims himself to be, (mildly) autistic. And he is not of world championship level. What I am saying is, is that even though psychological aspects and conditions may indeed play some part in obtaining championship levels, the implicit/suggested (causal) relationship between a psychological condition and reaching certain levels is to be supported by evidence, not heresay or quick judgements.

Author:	EdLee [ Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: I really hope that igo will get the recognition it deserves in the West and maybe we will have similar interviews on 60 minutes. It's a nice dream. Perhaps Demis Hassabis. Charlie Rose with Sophia:

Author:	Subotai [ Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Chess Prodigy
There was not one instance where I said 100% Carlsen has autism. I used words like "seems" and "hunch" and specifically stated that it is far from a concrete diagnosis. If I didn't make such a statement we couldn't have this conversation. I could have started a discussion with out the use of any names but it would be much more difficult for other people to comprehend. Once again, many people have suspected Carlsen of having autism, this isn't just me spouting nonsense. I remember reading that some players were frustrated with Lee saying that all he does is study go and does nothing else. I am interested in learning more about him he is one of my favorite players but there is only so much in English.

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