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Better In Endgame?
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Author:  hailthorn011 [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Better In Endgame?

I've noticed something odd about all of my games that tend to go further than middle game: I tend to perform better in endgame/late stages than any other stage of the game. This could just be me being too much of a novice to realize I set myself up good at the beginning, but it doesn't seem that way. I was playing a game against a KGS 14K, I was ranked 16K but moved up to 15K, and I was losing ground for a majority of the game (at least it felt that way), but then when endgame/late stages rolled around, I seemed to play better. Again, I'm not sure of this is simply my overactive imagination or not, but you all be the judge on that one.

Author:  Suji [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Better In Endgame?

All I can really say is this, if you believe you do better in the endgame it's probably true. The power of belief is a strong one.

Author:  karaklis [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Better In Endgame?

In that case I'd suggest not to resign in the middle game as long as you're in the DDK ranges, even when you're clearly behind.

Author:  tapir [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Better In Endgame?

hailthorn011 wrote:
I've noticed something odd about all of my games that tend to go further than middle game: I tend to perform better in endgame/late stages than any other stage of the game. This could just be me being too much of a novice to realize I set myself up good at the beginning, but it doesn't seem that way. I was playing a game against a KGS 14K, I was ranked 16K but moved up to 15K, and I was losing ground for a majority of the game (at least it felt that way), but then when endgame/late stages rolled around, I seemed to play better. Again, I'm not sure of this is simply my overactive imagination or not, but you all be the judge on that one.


If you have the feeling that you are losing ground overall, it is because you are playing a lot of moves on the SecondLine (that is often endgame moves) early in the game, even as pincer to an approach. Just look at the game after the first 110 moves, how much black moves are second line how much white. That is usually not efficient. But later when it is white's turn to exploit the strength he pretty much fails to do that. Most important for the result is however reading (where you spot something, your opponent failed to do), imagine J3 at J4 and N6 at N7 e.g.

Author:  zinger [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Better In Endgame?

You're not alone Hailthorne. I think the endgame is also my strongest area. I currently rank 1k on KGS. I would self-rate my various game skills something like:

opening: 3k
middlegame direction: 2k
fighting: 1k
tsumego: 2-3k
endgame: 2-3d

Not sure why this has developed, but there it is.

There is a player at my club who plays a very good opening - perhaps 3d level - and has good strategic judgement. But his fighting skill is noticeably weaker than mine, which means I take white or even give him two stones. It always gets worse in the opening which is his strength and my weakness. Not infrequently I look at the position at move 20-40 or so and consider resigning. Then I just start some fights instead and sometimes I win. Other times I equalize in the fighting then pull away in the ending. And sometimes I just lose.

Anyway, the point is, rank is really an average of skills in various areas. A good way to improve is to identify those areas where you are weakest, and work on those. Or to just always work on fighting and tsumego, which are the dominant factors.

Author:  gaius [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Better In Endgame?

I didn't look at every move, but I noticed you played the entire game blitz pace - you have more than 2/3rds of your time left at the end of the game. If you want to become stronger, slow down and think! There are almost always more options than the one that comes to mind first, so don't choose one until you have at least some idea why your move is better than the alternatives (plural).

There are many mistakes in the first clash, but I think a lot of them result from you not taking your time to figure out your objectives. For example:
- You spent 5 seconds on move 11. But it's not so simple - why not play P16? One cutting point less...
- You then spent 6 seconds on move 13. But why play that atari?
- 4 seconds on move 15. But if white would atari at R16, you would collapse...
- The situation gets settled, and then you play 21 (5 seconds). Well, I suppose that point is better than a pass. But only marginally! It's worth like 4 points or so, but the board is so open. Any shimari, kakari, or side extension would be so much bigger than a second line move like this!

I'll stop my game review here, as I don't believe it's very useful to review a blitz game in depth.

If you want to improve, I'll give you an "assignment": next time you play a game, take your time at every single move (especially in the opening & middle game), consider a few alternatives, and don't play until you can come up with good reasons that your move is best.

PS: hopefully that didn't come over too stern. Whatever you do, do make sure that you keep enjoying the game ;)

Author:  hailthorn011 [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Better In Endgame?

zinger wrote:
You're not alone Hailthorne. I think the endgame is also my strongest area. I currently rank 1k on KGS. I would self-rate my various game skills something like:

opening: 3k
middlegame direction: 2k
fighting: 1k
tsumego: 2-3k
endgame: 2-3d

Not sure why this has developed, but there it is.

There is a player at my club who plays a very good opening - perhaps 3d level - and has good strategic judgement. But his fighting skill is noticeably weaker than mine, which means I take white or even give him two stones. It always gets worse in the opening which is his strength and my weakness. Not infrequently I look at the position at move 20-40 or so and consider resigning. Then I just start some fights instead and sometimes I win. Other times I equalize in the fighting then pull away in the ending. And sometimes I just lose.

Anyway, the point is, rank is really an average of skills in various areas. A good way to improve is to identify those areas where you are weakest, and work on those. Or to just always work on fighting and tsumego, which are the dominant factors.


I never looked at it that way. I would guess my opening and middle stage play could use a lot of work at this point. Thanks, I'll try to work on that.

Author:  hailthorn011 [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Better In Endgame?

gaius wrote:
I didn't look at every move, but I noticed you played the entire game blitz pace - you have more than 2/3rds of your time left at the end of the game. If you want to become stronger, slow down and think! There are almost always more options than the one that comes to mind first, so don't choose one until you have at least some idea why your move is better than the alternatives (plural).

There are many mistakes in the first clash, but I think a lot of them result from you not taking your time to figure out your objectives. For example:
- You spent 5 seconds on move 11. But it's not so simple - why not play P16? One cutting point less...
- You then spent 6 seconds on move 13. But why play that atari?
- 4 seconds on move 15. But if white would atari at R16, you would collapse...
- The situation gets settled, and then you play 21 (5 seconds). Well, I suppose that point is better than a pass. But only marginally! It's worth like 4 points or so, but the board is so open. Any shimari, kakari, or side extension would be so much bigger than a second line move like this!

I'll stop my game review here, as I don't believe it's very useful to review a blitz game in depth.

If you want to improve, I'll give you an "assignment": next time you play a game, take your time at every single move (especially in the opening & middle game), consider a few alternatives, and don't play until you can come up with good reasons that your move is best.

PS: hopefully that didn't come over too stern. Whatever you do, do make sure that you keep enjoying the game ;)


You figured my play out pretty fast. I actually noticed that as well. I do play moves way too fast. Occasionally it works, but as you point it, it often causes me to make bad moves. The next game I play, I'll consider every possible move until I "think" I've found the best way to go.

Author:  kokomi [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Better In Endgame?

I want to know how to be good at end game...

Author:  Solomon [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Better In Endgame?

kokomi wrote:
I want to know how to be good at end game...

200 Endgame Problems and going over the last 80 or so moves of Lee Changho games from the late 90s - early 2000s.

Author:  Magicwand [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Better In Endgame?

kokomi wrote:
I want to know how to be good at end game...


Study endgame (learn to count whomuch it worth).
and play many many games.
i think that is the only way.

Author:  Chew Terr [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Better In Endgame?

kokomi wrote:
I want to know how to be good at end game...


As a free answer, Gochild has a fairly interesting set of problems on endgame.

Author:  dfan [ Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Better In Endgame?

Araban wrote:
kokomi wrote:
I want to know how to be good at end game...

200 Endgame Problems and going over the last 80 or so moves of Lee Changho games from the late 90s - early 2000s.

I really liked this book. A lot of endgame tactics are relatively simple but non-obvious because they make use of shortage of liberties and the properties of the first and second line. This book has lots of simple tesujis that are easy for SDKs to calculate but that they (including me!) always miss.

Author:  schilds [ Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Better In Endgame?

That game started working towards your favour during the middle game, not the end game. However, I'm not really sure it was that uneven coming out of the opening.

Note, opening, middle and end aren't defined by number of moves played or time, it's their character, and sometimes there will be end-game like sequences early on in some part of the board and some opening sequences may be delayed (for example, if both players ended up in a long fight in one part of the board while another part of the board is still open).

From a territorial viewpoint (and I make no claim as to the worth of viewing things this way :p), the opening generally involves sketching out potential territory, the middle game involves fighting to turn your own potential into actual territory while trying to stop your opponent from doing so, and the end game involves solidifying the borders of reasonably well defined territory.

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