I think you missed the point by a country mile. The admin said Mr Seedol. Seedol is not a surname.

On another point, this forum is not the property of any admins (unless fwiffo counts as one, too). They do have some sort of power, though and they may wish to abuse their power to ban me, but I don't believe that thought has even remotely crossed their minds (about me or anyone else). I don't think any one of them has even shown the slightest tendency to want to abuse their power in that way. I have simply observed and commented on an occasional lack of understanding that there is a world outside America. I make my comments not to castigate and not to provoke, but simply in the hope of opening eyes and ears.

I hope I'm not taken as anti-American. I have spent my last two main annual holidays on long trips to America and plan a bigger one next year. Although these are centred on baseball, my real motivation is to learn about America. I felt ashamed recently that I was so ignorant about one of the most important countries in the world. From several brief press trips I already knew that the gruesome tv and Hollywood image of the USA was warped. I therefore began a course of reading and visits to get a better picture.

I have been delighted with learning how attractive the real USA can be, and the joys of learning about other nations are such that I readily urge others to do the same.

John, thanks for taking such pains to be understood. Being careful to explain yourself saves internet misunderstandings, and the giant tangents it can take to resolve them.

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

Calling this thread a "gangfest of public ridiculue" much less suggesting that anything in it is "ridicule" seems pretty severe to me, considering I don't see anything contemptuous or derisive in it. The use of the word "girly", the closest it came, seems to have been simply a poorly chosen word.

I didn't. It was a pointer to a possible path. The point of speaking up early is to head them off at the pass. Yi Se-tol's voice has been the subject of scorn in another thread some time ago, so there is a bit of form here.

"girlish", "effeminate", "girl-like".

The last is probably the least likely to elicit offense.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I didn't mean anything offensive, but as a compliment, even more respectful of Lee Sedol. He has no problem displaying/showing his personality both off and on the board. On the board he is tough, off the board he doesn't mind showing a fun side. What I pointed out was just a contrast that many amateurs players that just discovered what Lee Sedol voice sound. What I laugh is that it is fun to see different side of Lee Sedol, a Pro player that I look up to. If I didn't care about him at all, I wouldn't look him up in youtube and see a video like that.

Girly, hillarious was used without any negative intention!!

I really hope you do not "talk privately, maybe get a third or fourth admin opinion on this" and make a "formal Announcement later." That's taking the moderator role here on L19 way too seriously, which I think is part of the underlying problem that I and some others see developing.

From my standpoint, moderators should only exercise their roles when it becomes obvious that the community cannot take care of problematic users or situations, which is very rare around here - no, we don't need to parse out what "obvious" means. It's perfectly okay to be disagreeable, angry or at times offensive and offended. I think we can allow each other the prerogative to be human, flaws and all, and make our own judgments as a result.

By the way, this is one of the most well-behaved forums I've ever been a part of. We regulate ourselves very nicely by comparison.

_________________
"This is a game that rewards patience and balance. You must think like a man of action and act like a man of thought."
-Jonas Skarssen

don't you guys have a private admin forum?

Well, I don't speak Korean so I guess I cannot be sure, but it looks to me as though the voice is not in synch with the lip movements. Did someone jut voice over it as a joke?

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

I think people are way over reacting to this. Lee Sedol is indeed a public figure and is subject to ridicule. Also, the "ridicule" has been lightly poking fun at best. Has everyone else been reading the same text I've been reading? Somehow I can't imagine Sedol logging on to this forum, seeing this thread and immediately starting to cry.

_________________
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee

Your analogy of "someone's house" is very accurate. All websites belong to someone. They are all private property.

Every time that you visit private property, be it a house, a store, a restaurant, or whatever, you are "...under constant threat of being thrown out...". If I am a guest in your home, you can throw me out for saying something you don't like. You can throw me out for having brown eyes if you wish.

Most reasonable property owners don't abuse this authority. If they did, their guests would not come back. When you visit your favorite restaurant, they can throw you out if they wish. But do you feel uncomfortable there because of it? Your local movie theater can throw you out, but do you feel uncomfortable there?

It is often the 'public spaces' where we feel most uncomfortable. Do you like the feeling in your local post office or your local courthouse or your local DMV? Would you let your kids play unsupervised in the local public park? Would you bother to read rec.games.go?

The problem with the public area where anybody can say/do anything is that somebody eventually does. And that ruins it for everybody.


Ultimately, what most of us want is a contradiction. We want the feeling of freedom that comes with knowing that we can say or do as we please. And we want the feeling of security that comes with knowing that other people will not seriously abuse that freedom.

Most restaurants/theaters/bars/stores provide this very unobtrusively. Some have a doorman/clerk who will not let someone in who is cleary drunk or raving or otherwise unpleasant. If someone does get in and then is disruptive, they will quietly ask that person to calm down or leave. They have the ability to deal with disruptions in a way that is both private and immediate.

A forum like L19 tries to mimic this scheme. The one difference is that there is so little privacy. We can't take someone aside in real time and quietly ask them not to do something. We can do something privately - like send them a PM, but it has little effect until they log in again. We can do/say something immediately - like editing or deleteing a post, but then it is public.
We don't have the ability to step in in a way that is both immediate and private. We can let the disruption remain while we act privately, or we can act publicly. But unlike your local store or restaurant, we can't do both.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

I agree, but remember that L19 does not belong to the administrators and moderators. L19 belongs to the domain owner.

General contribution from me

I believe the roles that the admins have are that of maintenance, support and administration of the forums and their structure. The admins therefore serve the community by keeping it operational.

I believe the roles of the moderators is in maintaining the atmosphere and content of the threads, and the conduct of posters. The moderators therefore serve the community by keeping it civil.

The admins have a de facto power to moderate, but that is not their primary function. I thoroughly agree with the decision that was made to appoint moderators on a public vote, as they hold the responsibility endowed upon them by the forum users to serve appropriately. The appointment of administrators in the same manner is not appropriate as this is suited to those with technical understanding and capabilities, and these may not be obvious or apparent to those voting.

However, I do believe in the accountability of selection processes, and I do think having admins that are very active in moderation without having been also part of the public selection process is liable to cause resentment, and I suspect some of the issues that have arisen recently are in this category. I am not entirely clear on the best way forward, but I do believe that those with moderation rights should not be above accountability to the forums overall. I also believe that if their suitability for the role is being questioned enough to create more than one thread on the issue, they should be prepared to stand for an approval/rejection/abstention vote with regards to their moderation rights.

Regardless of whether or not I think my moderation actions are "right", or "in the best interests of the community", I feel democratically voted into the rule and equally votable back out of it, and I think the same should go for all of us with elevated rights.

I agree with this. I will try to get to the improvements I have been wanting to make on the go diagrams shortly

_________________
be immersed

_________________
长考出臭棋.

Wowzers, you moderators have "elevated rights"! Does that mean you get to have free cookies here?

_________________
My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

When in doubt, play the most aggressive move

Either Joaz's point flew wide of the mark, or you deliberately stepped out of the way. I suspect the latter...