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 Post subject: Fair Play for All?
Post #1 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:43 am 
Gosei

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There is a convention I see now for online go tournaments.
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Fair play: dan players must film themselves during the game; kifus will be analysed
So I was wondering, is it really normal that we should only plan to protect the dan players during a tournament? If I was to make a poll such as Who do you think is the most likely to cheat, a kyu player or a dan player? I'm not sure that there would be a clear margin in favour of one side or the other. The only motivation I can see for this precision is that only the dan players can win any money. Well that is true, but in order to enter the tournament everyone has to pay some money. Everyone in the tournament wants to enjoy the same expectations that they aren't going to have fair games, or more honestly fair games that they win ;-) . If it doesn't hurt the organisers to ask that everyone records their game in this fashion, then why not ask everyone to do it.

For me, it just seems pretty unrealistic that you can catch anyone cheating anyway, not unless they're really bad at cheating that is. The main idea behind a camera is the idea that they're being watched and can't spend their time looking at the game on a second screen. That limits their cheating time to the toilet break , snack break , internet outage, incoming phone call from a friend, or just looking at the analysis board on OGS. If you're going to put a deterrent in place, why not put in place for everyone?

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Play for All?
Post #2 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:06 am 
Oza

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Quote:
So I was wondering, is it really normal that we should only plan to protect the dan players during a tournament?


I gather that a major reason for cheating is that people with low self esteem do it in order to bolster their esteem, which in go would only kick in by achieving a dan grade. Once you've achieved that grade by nefarious means, you have to "retire" or (one would hope) get found out on camera.

If that sort of thinking accurately reflects what is happening, it might be better to say dans and 1-kyus should be filmed.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Play for All?
Post #3 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:09 am 
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Most places I've seen it recommended for kyu players and required for dan players or dans and strong sdks, with the advice being "you should still record even if it's not required as it's an easy way to show you weren't using aids (in an obvious way) during a game." Mostly I think that people don't want to require everyone to be recording themselves as it's not the simplest thing to ask people (not everyone plays at a computer with a webcam or in a room that is private etc) and dan players are less likely to refuse to participate because of the hassle than ddks. I do think there's probably a cost in asking everyone to record themselves playing it's not a simple or easy thing for everyone to do and may be easier to sell the requirement to stronger players than weaker players as necessary precaution.

I agree it feels odd when there are different regulations for different player groups but I've seen this kind of split before in other games where the "stronger players" were being held to a higher/stricter standard. Mostly because you risk driving away more casual or newer players with such rules e.g. shuffling rules in Magic The Gathering vary by tournament level, the more casual players likely to present the less strict the system tends to be. It can definitely feel weird that you are allowed a lower standard that's easier to cheat in but enforcing proper shuffling isn't free and adds a "guard against your opponent trying to cheat" message that's perhaps not the best thing in more casual play rather than tournaments for significant money even though people will cheat at casual events too.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Play for All?
Post #4 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:11 am 
Gosei
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As a kyu player, I don't care if a small percentage of my opponents cheat. Since the beginning of the pandemic, I have played about 30 online tournament games, and all games seemed normal. It doesn't prove nobody cheated against me but if they did, they (and I) played so many bad moves that we had interesting and challenging matches.

Of the other hand, if cheating became widespread then I'd like tournament rules to be stricter.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Play for All?
Post #5 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:33 am 
Judan

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"Protect the (dan) players"? Filming is not protection but intrusion to privacy. Depending on how filming shall be operated, its software might furthermore violate privacy or even integrity of computer data and possibly violate related laws, especially if filming shall be live and online.

Webcams demotivate my participation in online tournaments. Not because I would oppose fair play means but because I dislike webcams.

Current practice in some tournaments is not a "convention".

If filming is required, the requirement alone is insufficient. Instead, there must also be tournament rules about
- malfunctioning servers, operating systems, softwares, internet connection, phone connection and power supply,
- accidental or intentional failure to record.

Filming might prevent some naive cheating but cannot prevent skilled cheating, such as information visible to the player but not to the camera due to a dead angle or specific properties of light. For example, low light digits / coded dots / shades can be displayed or projected on / in glasses or inner monitor boundaries. There were reports on an AI-guided mouse pointer moving to the recommended intersection.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Play for All?
Post #6 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:14 am 
Gosei

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Robert, in terms of privacy, you are right it is an invasion of privacy, but I don't think it is anymore so than the privacy lost whilst playing in a real life tournament. Possibly the loss is even less, since only your opponent and the referees might be watching your recording. So if these tournaments are supposed to be a substitute for real life competition, and I think that they are, I don't see that point as valid. For the rest I concur.

The recent Pandanet case would be an interesting point, because there you would have a kyu player who doesn't have to be filmed, and a dan player, who would have to be filmed. Again, it feels a bit broken in terms of rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Play for All?
Post #7 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:20 am 
Oza

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Quote:
, in terms of privacy, you are right it is an invasion of privacy, but I don't think it is anymore so than the privacy lost whilst playing in a real life tournament.


Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you.

Incidentally, the imposition of these filming rules doesn't seem to match the hyped claims of the software cheatbusters, no?

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Play for All?
Post #8 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:24 am 
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Javaness2 wrote:
Robert, in terms of privacy, you are right it is an invasion of privacy, but I don't think it is anymore so than the privacy lost whilst playing in a real life tournament. Possibly the loss is even less, since only your opponent and the referees might be watching your recording. So if these tournaments are supposed to be a substitute for real life competition, and I think that they are, I don't see that point as valid. For the rest I concur.


The privacy concern is a real issue for those of us who would have difficulty avoiding recording our kids and family or whatever in the background. Not unsolvable but logistically not trivial depending on your home. The kind of issue you might not be willing to correct as a more casual player but should be more than willing to find a way around for serious competition.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Play for All?
Post #9 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:38 am 
Gosei

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Boidhre wrote:
Javaness2 wrote:
Robert, in terms of privacy, you are right it is an invasion of privacy, but I don't think it is anymore so than the privacy lost whilst playing in a real life tournament. Possibly the loss is even less, since only your opponent and the referees might be watching your recording. So if these tournaments are supposed to be a substitute for real life competition, and I think that they are, I don't see that point as valid. For the rest I concur.


The privacy concern is a real issue for those of us who would have difficulty avoiding recording our kids and family or whatever in the background. Not unsolvable but logistically not trivial depending on your home. The kind of issue you might not be willing to correct as a more casual player but should be more than willing to find a way around for serious competition.


Oh yes, that's a point. But can you just solve that like we do in work, with blur background?
For me that situation is my fundamental reason why online go is annoying, I don't have a quiet room in my house, and I don't filter out family noises.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Play for All?
Post #10 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:41 am 
Gosei
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There is no point filming yourself if Katago is running in the blurred background.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Play for All?
Post #11 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:54 am 
Gosei

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jlt wrote:
There is no point filming yourself if Katago is running in the blurred background.


Well yes, there's no point in cheating if you put KataGo on camera. Is the idea of filming to give a 360 view on yourself, or is it just to watch your eyes and body language? I kind of imagined it was there just to look at your face. Do you need to be able to cope with this https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/-is ... appearance

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Play for All?
Post #12 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:05 am 
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The Paris tournament rules say
Quote:
All Dan players must use a webcam or smart phone to film themselves and their computer screen during the game. For example you can make a video call with your oponent via Skype and save it to a file. Referees might ask you for this file in case of suspicion and it might prove your innocence.

For kyu players this is optional but strongly recommended.


The Third Corona Cup rules say

Quote:
All dan players are obliged to use webcameras during their games at least for offline recording, and to have the records ready if asked by the organisers. One recommended way is to have a video call with your opponent and save the video call in a file with Skype. The video should be taken from the side, so that the computer’s screen, player’s mouse hand, and the player’s face are all visible. For other players this is optional, but highly recommended. If you are suspected of using an AI, video records are the best way to show your innocence.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Play for All?
Post #13 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:38 am 
Oza

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Javaness2 wrote:
Oh yes, that's a point. But can you just solve that like we do in work, with blur background?
For me that situation is my fundamental reason why online go is annoying, I don't have a quiet room in my house, and I don't filter out family noises.


You pretty much need to be recording audio as well for obvious reasons. Combine a Skype call to some random go player with an open mic in your house and it's complicated. You absolutely can work around this but it's not necessarily going to be simple and easy for everyone, not everyone has a suitable room in their home to lock everyone else out of during the tournament. It's the kind of thing that's perfectly reasonable to ask with a serious tournament or at higher strengths where it's arguably easier to hide cheating and the effect is more impactful, and arguably rather a bit over the top to force on all players of all levels.


I like the "recommended but not required except for a subset of players who must do it" approach, especially for ddks.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Play for All?
Post #14 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:56 am 
Judan

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Javaness2 wrote:
an invasion of privacy, but I don't think it is anymore so than the privacy lost whilst playing in a real life tournament.


It is a different kind of loss of privacy. There can be private speech by third persons in the background, private property not everybody needs to know about (such as piles of gold:) ) and privacy rights of children in the background, which can be especially protected by laws in some countries.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Play for All?
Post #15 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:02 am 
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I can't speak for everyone, of course, but I would feel like I'm installing my own telescreen. I also would feel very much observed and I would feel that any movement, maybe even eye movement, might look conspicuous in the camera. To make it short, I would not feel comfortable to play under such circumstances.

I also do not believe in the effectiveness of such surveillance.

I think the most useful thing one can do is to make as many game records public as possible, also offline ones, so that future analysis will show the hard-to-explain strength differences (both gains and drops).

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Play for All?
Post #16 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:05 pm 
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I haven't participated yet in any online EGF tournament. For Coronacup 3 I did consider participating, but when I read about the requirement that dan players need to film themselves, I changed my mind. It's not that I have something to hide, but setting up equipment to film myself is a lot of hassle and I think I would even feel uncomfortable while playing.

I understand that organisers are forced to takes measures like this to discourage cheating in online EGF rated tournaments with prize money. But I'm not going to win any prize, so I would participate just for fun. There would be little difference to playing online casually and I can just do that without having to jump through hoops. Participating is just not worth it to me, so I don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Play for All?
Post #17 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:25 pm 
Gosei

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Quote:
All Dan players must use a webcam or smart phone to film themselves and their computer screen during the game. For example you can make a video call with your opponent via Skype and save it to a file. Referees might ask you for this file in case of suspicion and it might prove your innocence.


Okay, so they are going for the 360° kind of view then, which would make blur pretty damn hard to get right. For hardened cheaters it is still very possible to hide something offscreen refer to though, since they are effectively suggesting 180°.

That does all sound like a headache to set up, but I still don't think it normal to have rules which apply to only half the players the tournament.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair Play for All?
Post #18 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:16 pm 
Gosei
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Another reason is that the anti-cheating committee has no time to examine hundreds of games, so I guess they will mostly examine games from players who are eligible for a prize, and also when cheating suspicions are reported. Only dan players can pretend to get a prize, or at least may disrupt the top of the tournament ranking if they win too many games.

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