Life In 19x19 :: illusionary sente

I've been playing with a 3d new co-worker several times a week now, and he's been pointing out that many of my moves are what he calls "illusionary sente".

That is, even though he may be forced to respond, its typically a response he wanted to make anyway (a "thank you" move), or one that takes away a possible tsuji or other big sente play for me in a nearby area.

For many kyu players, once we learn the concept of sente and gote, we then try to play all the "sente" plays we can find right away. But apparently, many of those are just illusionary sente.

How do you guys learn to recognize illusionary sente from true sente?

Author:	xed_over [ Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:27 am ]
Post subject:	illusionary sente
I've been playing with a 3d new co-worker several times a week now, and he's been pointing out that many of my moves are what he calls "illusionary sente". That is, even though he may be forced to respond, its typically a response he wanted to make anyway (a "thank you" move), or one that takes away a possible tsuji or other big sente play for me in a nearby area. For many kyu players, once we learn the concept of sente and gote, we then try to play all the "sente" plays we can find right away. But apparently, many of those are just illusionary sente. How do you guys learn to recognize illusionary sente from true sente?

Author:	Li Kao [ Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: illusionary sente
I think calling them "useless sente" describes their nature better. And just ask the question "If I do this and he responds, has that improved the state of the game?". But of course this answer is general to the point of uselessness. Another important aspect of sente is whether if he moves first his move is sente. Since then you need to compare the result of the move pair where you started with the move pair where he started.

Author:	Solomon [ Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: illusionary sente
The only way to recognize fake from real sente is simply to ask yourself if you'd really respond to your own move.

Author:	Chew Terr [ Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: illusionary sente
xed_over wrote: How do you guys learn to recognize illusionary sente from true sente? This sounds like a question of improving judgement. The only way I know to improve judgement is experience, plus analyzing games. If anyone knows a better way to improve judgement of positions, I'd love to hear it.

Author:	palapiku [ Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: illusionary sente
Watching pro or high dan games is a good reminder of how many things are best left unsettled/unplayed. Even low dans play many more forcing moves.

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

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Author:	Bill Spight [ Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: illusionary sente
xed_over wrote: I've been playing with a 3d new co-worker several times a week now, and he's been pointing out that many of my moves are what he calls "illusionary sente". That is, even though he may be forced to respond, its typically a response he wanted to make anyway (a "thank you" move), or one that takes away a possible tsuji or other big sente play for me in a nearby area. For many kyu players, once we learn the concept of sente and gote, we then try to play all the "sente" plays we can find right away. But apparently, many of those are just illusionary sente. How do you guys learn to recognize illusionary sente from true sente? From what you say, it sounds like he is talking about aji keshi. For a discussion of whether and when to play sente, I think that these SL pages are pretty good: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Kikashi http://senseis.xmp.net/?KikashiSenteDiscussion There is no easy answer, and the pros do not always agree about specific cases.

Author:	Toge [ Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: illusionary sente
Introduction chapter of James Davies' Life and Death book talks about this. Don't play unworking moves just to make opponent answer. You might get 1 point for "free", but lose very valuable ko threat. Sometimes a peep is very good attacking tactic, sometimes it spoils aji that would be available if the opponent's group wasn't so strong. Then there's "sente" moves that aren't nowhere big enough to warrant responding. Opponent makes a single-purpose sente with 5 point follow-up. You ought to make sente with bigger follow-up that also has other implications. I know this in theory, but find it hard to question opponent's intentions. Perhaps the whole concept of "move you must answer" is giving us amateurs warped view of the game. Respond only when the response is indeed the best move on board! Watching professional games helps. Every time they respond to move it feels like they are the ones getting benefit from the exchange. It's real eye-opener.

Author:	Violence [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: illusionary sente
Mingjiu started grinding the idea into my head whenever I would show him games of mine, and he'd stop me, remove a few stones and say, "Bad Exchange!" The way I look at it is to start thinking of your options, and ask yourself if you're overcommitting to something when you can keep something in reserve to play differently later in the game. Never play sente for sente's sake, you'll just lose.

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