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severe time weakness?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2425		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  cdybeijing [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:16 am ]
Post subject:  severe time weakness?
Is very slow play a weakness? How about when one is learning the game (i.e. kyu range)?

I have been playing for 14 months and I am currently bouncing back and forth between 2 and 3 kyu on KGS. I have been fairly active to get to this point and I have had some help from many strong players, but I have always prioritized the quality of my games and reviews over the quantity with respect to improving at the most efficient rate. My KGS games are never slower than 30 minutes + 5 x 30s, but lately I've been playing 30 minutes + 3 x 1:00.

I generally feel that my opponents are quite weak and unthinking. Of course, there are major blind spots in my own games that keep me at this level for now, but that said, many of my games involve a significant overplay from my opponent in the first 40 moves, me spending 80% or more of my main time finding a strong line of play, and then clinging to my position for the last 150 moves while in byo-yomi. I know that this is not efficient use of my time, but I have a hard time playing unthinking moves.

1) Can anyone offer any practical suggestions for improving time management skills? I don't enjoy blitz games and generally want to take every game seriously while I am still improving.
2) Is my experience common among those who are still improving quickly?
Author:  Koroviev [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: severe time weakness?
If it ain't broke...etc.

Sounds like your current style is already leading to quick improvement, and if you don't actually enjoy fast games, why play them?

On the other hand, try spending one week on fast games, just to see what happens. You might love them.
Author:  blue88 [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: severe time weakness?
I have the same 'problem'. I study more than I play and consequently I spend a lot of time thinking (about things I recently studied etc.) during games. I enjoyed 30+5*30, because it's slow, but it was bothersome to get into byo-yomi pressure early, because my opponent started taking their time then and doing slight overplays, which I couldn't punish fast enough. I still have that problem, but changing the time settings to 15+5*40 (currently) fits my needs. It prevents my opponent from getting too much of a time advantage because he will come to the byo-yomi too eventually and I still have some time to think (those 10 extra seconds are very helpful).
Author:  Chew Terr [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: severe time weakness?
I have a similar problem. I play monolithically slowly, focusing on the first 1/2 to 2/3 of moves. I say it's a problem for me, because I'm so bad in byo-yomi. It would be fine, if I could play decent endgame when low on time, but when time gets low, I start to slip. Perhaps I SHOULD try some faster games, just so I don't flail in a clutch. I would also appreciate any suggestions for ways to better handle myself once I AM low on time.
Author:  robinz [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: severe time weakness?
I have exactly the same problem. I usually only play rated games online at 30:00 +5x30s, or 20:00 +5x30s as a very minimum. And I usually find I'm in byoyomi by move 150 or so - less if there's been something complicated - when my opponent typically still has half their time left. One of the reasons I prefer playing over-the-board is that it's the only time that I can think properly about the endgame, rather than just picking on promising-looking moves more-or-less at random.
Author:  gaius [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: severe time weakness?
If you find this a problem, why don't you try to play more games in real life? If you're in Beijing, it can't be that hard to find opponents, and people tend to play a lot less silly over an actual board. I know from my own experience that even when I try to play seriously online, a lot of my moves are very much worse than when I'm actually putting black and white marbles on a piece of wood.

Needing too much time is quite common I think. You might never become the World Lightning Go Champion, but as you get stronger, you'll get better at handling byo-yomi :).
Author:  emeraldemon [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: severe time weakness?
I was able to watch a 9d (Francis Meyer) play in our local tournament last month. The time limits were 60 min +5x30sec byo-yomi. He used the full hour very early in the game (first 50 moves or so), and by early endgame had used all his spare byo-yomi, so he was playing 30sec sudden death. And he let it go to 28 seconds almost every move. It seemed a nerve-destroying way to play, but he went undefeated, so he must know something about how to handle it.
Author:  hyperpape [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: severe time weakness?
Being able to calmly use all your time when in byo-yomi is a common trait of strong players: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1433&start=0&hilit=myungwan.

Of course there are strong players and professionals who play quickly, but I think the ability to eke everything out of those moves under time pressure is a skill that they all share.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: severe time weakness?
I used to spend most of my time in the opening and early middle-game and get into byo-yomi quickly. I wish I could tell you exactly what changed so that I know longer do that, but in all honesty I really don't know. Nowadays, I only enter byo-yomi in the late-middlegame or endgame. So really, I see no problem with spending a significant amount of your time in the opening, as long as you can properly handle playing in byo-yomi when your main time runs out.

I also have noticed that most of my opponents seem to have a signifcant amount of main time leftover at the end of the game. If that were me, I would treat that time as wasted, but they're not me so they can do what they want. Some pros even seem to play incredibly quickly, so it must work for some people.
Author:  cdybeijing [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: severe time weakness?
gaius wrote:
If you find this a problem, why don't you try to play more games in real life? If you're in Beijing, it can't be that hard to find opponents, and people tend to play a lot less silly over an actual board. I know from my own experience that even when I try to play seriously online, a lot of my moves are very much worse than when I'm actually putting black and white marbles on a piece of wood.

Needing too much time is quite common I think. You might never become the World Lightning Go Champion, but as you get stronger, you'll get better at handling byo-yomi :).


I play about the same amount over the board as I do online - the majority of those games are handicap games where I am black, for obvious reasons. These games are incredibly helpful to me, however they are predominantly untimed. Most Chinese players weaker than 5 dan play the game only for fun and relaxation, so asking them to use a clock would at the very least be strange to them.

I think in general, I play similarly over the board and online, in terms of the quality of my moves. I don't tend to see online games as point and shoot.
Author:  cdybeijing [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: severe time weakness?
Dusk Eagle wrote:
I used to spend most of my time in the opening and early middle-game and get into byo-yomi quickly. I wish I could tell you exactly what changed so that I know longer do that, but in all honesty I really don't know. Nowadays, I only enter byo-yomi in the late-middlegame or endgame. So really, I see no problem with spending a significant amount of your time in the opening, as long as you can properly handle playing in byo-yomi when your main time runs out.

I also have noticed that most of my opponents seem to have a signifcant amount of main time leftover at the end of the game. If that were me, I would treat that time as wasted, but they're not me so they can do what they want. Some pros even seem to play incredibly quickly, so it must work for some people.


This reply and a couple of the others above seem to be suggesting that my pattern may not really be as problematic as I thought. Perhaps when using byo-yomi specifically, managing main time is really not nearly so important as using the bonus periods wisely.

I definitely cannot understand it when I play a 30 min + 5 x 30s game and my opponent finishes the game with a substantial portion of their main time remaining.
Author:  EdLee [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: severe time weakness?
cdybeijing wrote:
I generally feel that my opponents are quite weak and unthinking.
This is your first problem. See this nice long discussion: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1578
cdybeijing wrote:
Can anyone offer any practical suggestions for improving time management skills?
Improve your reading speed and accuracy.
Author:  Apoah [ Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: severe time weakness?
I have recently begun playing this way. There is nothing like having a new kid in the house that will show you how much time 25 or 30 minutes really is on a clock.

It happened like this: I would be playing a game on KGS and get distracted because I had to change a diaper or feed the baby. Then I would make a cup of tea and suddenly remember "Oh no! My game!" and rush to the computer expecting to see a time out, but instead see that I had 15 minutes left on the clock.

So I've been doing a lot more thinking in my games. Sometimes I will actually walk across the room to my board and play out some variations.

I have found that really studying the board and thinking of moyo and influence and trying to count the number of separate groups for black and white and ascertain their strength takes quite a bit of time. As soon as I see any moyo start to develop I begin to try and count the game as well. I have begun trying to get a count as early as 60 moves now.

I have been using up a majority of my time within the first 70 or so moves and then it seems like the rest of the game begins to play itself.

Of course, I am speaking from a fairly modest kyu level. So take it with a grain of salt. But unless you are a virtuosic player, I can't imagine that thinking is a bad thing. Eventually the things you are spending a lot of time thinking about now will take you seconds to read.
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