Life In 19x19
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Crippled
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3143		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Shaddy [ Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Crippled
These days, when I play go, the urge to win is absolutely crippling- almost painful. It starts during middlegame and lasts all through the endgame. It's at the point where I don't even like to play online much anymore, because it hurts too badly to lose. Has anyone else had this feeling, and does anyone know how to get rid of it? I just want to enjoy playing again.
Author:  Mnemonic [ Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crippled
Yeah, I know that feeling. (Although my reason is more that I worry about rank. I want my rank to improve and don't want to lose, so I don't play. But without playing I don't improve. Paradoxes suck :D )

I found that it helps when I commit myself beforehand, when the rational part of my brain tells me I need to play more and the event is too far off that my subconscious fear isn't kicking in yet. Sign up for tournaments or malkovich games on the forum. After you obligate yourself to something it’s harder backing out so you play more. I also think it helps playing against people you know instead of some anonymous nickname.
Or just playing offline helps a lot. If you drove 30 minute to your go club and you see all the people playing, you kinda wanna play too ;-)
Author:  Perception [ Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crippled
I have issues playing online too. Part of it is definitely that I don't want to lose. I turned my rank off on kgs so I wouldn't worry about winning or losing so much but that doesn't really help with the second problem.

The second problem though is that there is a record of the game for anyone to see when you play online. Playing at the club no one but myself and maybe my opponent is going to remember the game we played so if I play poorly in a few games it's not a big deal although I might be thinking about it for a few days.

Unfortunately if winning or losing is the problem just getting stronger won't help because you'll just be playing stronger opponents. Is it a problem when you play offline too or do you not have a club nearby?
Author:  Monadology [ Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crippled
Mnemonic wrote:
Yeah, I know that feeling. (Although my reason is more that I worry about rank. I want my rank to improve and don't want to lose, so I don't play. But without playing I don't improve. Paradoxes suck :D )


I get this to a mild extent too. The way I deal with it is whenever I play a game online, if I lose I will call it quits for that day because I know the next game I will be likely more concerned about losing and thus enjoy it less and probably be more likely to lose. If I win, I'll play again if I feel like it (which is usually). Sometimes I'm in the right mood to play despite the loss.

Basically, I avoid having my rank plummet in a short period of time. If I lose five games across five separate days it's not really that frustrating, even though the net effect on rank is the same. Whereas if I lose five in one night it's highly demoralizing.

I developed this coping strategy when I played Mahjong a lot. It's especially good to temper those emotions with a gambling game (not that I gambled money).
Author:  EdLee [ Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
As you undoubtedly know already, this largely depends on what you want out of Go, and on your mentality.

Of course, it is natural to want to win. If winning is so important to you,
you can easily create a new account to sandbag and win 99% of the games
(losing on the occasional blunder or to another fellow sandbagger. :))
But that's not the point and you know it.

When you play someone of your level, or when you play a fair handicapped game,
you also know you'll win 50% and lose 50% on average. So that's not it, either.

The only sensible thing left, at least to me, is to try to make the best move,
one at a time. Don't play a move that I'll regret later.
Of course, afterwards, when a good teacher reviews the game,
all the mistakes, big and small and ugly and stupid, will be pointed out to me.
So back to more studying, and try to do better the next game.
Then winning or losing is not the end but only a means.

I feel lucky that I'm not a pro, whose wins and losses directly affect a livelihood (and family).

I hope you will eventually work through this stage.
When you feel proud about the efforts you put into your studies
and into every move, and you feel good about a game whether
you win or lose, then you will have much improved. :)
Author:  Shaddy [ Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crippled
Thanks for the responses, everyone! Perception- it's not a problem at the club, because I'm talking during games and everything is lighthearted and enjoyable.
Author:  xed_over [ Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crippled
Shaddy wrote:
Thanks for the responses, everyone! Perception- it's not a problem at the club, because I'm talking during games and everything is lighthearted and enjoyable.

I think that's part of the reason I don't like playing online so much -- I really enjoy the social aspects of the game. Not trying to win or lose, but just enjoying learning something new about the game.
Author:  daal [ Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crippled
1. Modesty. You are not the greatest thing since sliced bread. On the board you have weaknesses that are sometimes fatal.

2. Respect. Your opponent is a valiant warrior. It is an honor to face him in battle.
Author:  Kirby [ Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
As you undoubtedly know already, this largely depends on what you want out of Go, and on your mentality.

Of course, it is natural to want to win. If winning is so important to you,
you can easily create a new account to sandbag and win 99% of the games
(losing on the occasional blunder or to another fellow sandbagger. :))
But that's not the point and you know it.

When you play someone of your level, or when you play a fair handicapped game,
you also know you'll win 50% and lose 50% on average. So that's not it, either.

The only sensible thing left, at least to me, is to try to make the best move,
one at a time. Don't play a move that I'll regret later.
Of course, afterwards, when a good teacher reviews the game,
all the mistakes, big and small and ugly and stupid, will be pointed out to me.
So back to more studying, and try to do better the next game.
Then winning or losing is not the end but only a means.

I feel lucky that I'm not a pro, whose wins and losses directly affect a livelihood (and family).

I hope you will eventually work through this stage.
When you feel proud about the efforts you put into your studies
and into every move, and you feel good about a game whether
you win or lose, then you will have much improved. :)


It's probably not the intent of your post, but you make me want to start sandbagging more.
Author:  Li Kao [ Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
Kirby wrote:
It's probably not the intent of your post, but you make me want to start sandbagging more.

Just ask a weaker L19 player for a game. The opportunity to play a stronger player with reduced handicap/in an even game is always nice.
Sandbaggers annoy me if I have to give them handicap.
Author:  topazg [ Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
I feel lucky that I'm not a pro, whose wins and losses directly affect a livelihood (and family).


Yeah, I agree whole-heartedly, we take this good fortune for granted too easily.

Sometimes I play moves these days that I know will probably lose me the game, just because they look interesting and I can't see if they work or not. I have the pleasure of being able to do something crazy, lose horribly, and put the stones away without any personal loss.

It's a hobby, it's supposed to be fun, so I just play to make it as fun as possible. There's a saying that to achieve as much as possible you have to "not care whether you live or die" - to throw everything in without inhibition, knowing any outcome is possible and not trying overly hard to avoid the worst case scenarios.

Professional players doing this risk their livelihood. Amateur players risk absolutely nothing other than pride that they aren't really good enough to have anyway.
Author:  terraform [ Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crippled
If I don't feel up to a game some day (because of demoralizing mistakes the day before, or I just don't feel up to dealing with some of the people you play on KGS) I like to click on higher rank games until I find one that's interesting. Watching better people play out a game makes me forget about everything I don't like about KGS. Games like that pretty much instill you with a need to play a game of Go.

I agree with topaz, too. If you don't feel like a game, maybe play just one to play some move that would be really fun to play (like crosscut where you've always extended). It doesn't matter if you win or lose; it was fun to play that move, right? Success!
Author:  Mnemonic [ Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crippled
I don't know if you have ever tried this, but I created a drunk account for myself. Whenever I'm coming from a party or similar and feel the need to play some games I just put on some hard techno and start playing. The techno and the alcohol pump me up and I start to just cut and kill everything. I then loose horribly because everything I tried to kill, lives and everything I tried to cut, connects. But it is a lot of fun :D
Author:  Redundant [ Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crippled
Mnemonic wrote:
I don't know if you have ever tried this, but I created a drunk account for myself. Whenever I'm coming from a party or similar and feel the need to play some games I just put on some hard techno and start playing. The techno and the alcohol pump me up and I start to just cut and kill everything. I then loose horribly because everything I tried to kill, lives and everything I tried to cut, connects. But it is a lot of fun :D


He has a drunk account ... but it's 5d? on kgs ...
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
Kirby wrote:
It's probably not the intent of your post, but you make me want to start sandbagging more.
Probably not. :batman: Kirby. :-?
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mnemonic wrote:
but I created a drunk account for myself.
:mrgreen:
Author:  Marcus [ Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crippled
Hey Shaddy!

I have in the past felt the way you describe. I took an 18 month break. I don't think that's what you want to do, though. ;)

You mention you like the social aspect of the game ... so find some online opponents who are willing to chat throughout the game, too. Maybe that's harder to do at the dan levels. I can usually find people who are chatty on KGS and we play and have fun.
Author:  Mnemonic [ Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crippled
Redundant wrote:
Mnemonic wrote:
I don't know if you have ever tried this, but I created a drunk account for myself. Whenever I'm coming from a party or similar and feel the need to play some games I just put on some hard techno and start playing. The techno and the alcohol pump me up and I start to just cut and kill everything. I then loose horribly because everything I tried to kill, lives and everything I tried to cut, connects. But it is a lot of fun :D

He has a drunk account ... but it's 5d? on kgs ...

I don't know what you mean exactly, but drunken acounts are fun. When I first created my drunken acount I was around 13k so I put 15k as estimate. I quikly plumited to _19k_ The next time I played drunken I had advenced to 14k (some wierd KGS mecannic. Either way I was 14k at the time, so I thought it was no biggy) Next day I checked and my drunken acount was better than my main acount :shock: It didn't last long and it probably only works on ddk level, but my point is: a "I'm not feeling so good" acont is very beneficial to your 'go games played per month'.

edit: my post is writen without artificial corection so please forgive me. (details explaind in this post)
Author:  Toge [ Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crippled
I don't understand why some people care about winning and losing so much, if it's not for some external benefit. I don't mean "care about win" as implication to play the game in the first place. The fact is within community Wins = Losses. For every winner there is exactly one loser. Loser in one game can very well be winner in next one and vice versa. It's like fate. You never know the mental state of your opponent. The only evidence, granted by ranking, is the level he plays over long periods of time. Play against your peers and you have a fair game every single time.

One can not "lose" rank either. It's an illusion when you've played for many years and slowly developed skill in game. Getting rank feels like prize. In reality rank reflects only your own skill. If you were to start a new account and played a few ranked games, you'd instantly be where your old account was.
Author:  Shaddy [ Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crippled
Marcus- Yeah, a lot of dans are either foreign and don't speak english or don't want to chat during the game.

Mnemonic- He means I played a few games on it, won all of them, and now the account is [5d?]
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