Fixed handicap placement on 13 x 13

willemien · #1

What is in your own opinion the best rule for maximum fixed placement on a 13 x 13 board?

GTP prescribes option a but that is no reason to have another opinion.

This poll is because a question on the Gotalk mailing list

EdLee · #2

As a general convention, (a) is OK.
However, Go is free -- especially in a friendly game, or even a teaching game,
it should be up to the two players to decide for themselves.
There shouldn't be any rigid rule about the maximum number or placement.
If they are OK with more than 9 handicap stones on 13x13 (or 19x19), so be it.
But in my experience, most serious players prefer not to have more than 9 handicap stones,
even on 19x19, not to mention 13x13 -- both players start to feel funny when it's more than 9.

willemien · #3

I do prefer b. excpecially if the White player is much stronger than the opponent.

(all the tricks of living under a starpoint stop working) maybe with black playing optimal white cannot even live.

HermanHiddema · #4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . , . . . , . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . , . . . , . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . , . . . , . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------+[/go]

For a variety of 3-3, 4-4 and 3-4 points.

With two handicap, take the diagonally opposite 3-3 and 4-4 point.

daniel_the_smith · #5

Herman, that board is giving me a headache...

I saw this thread title and thought, "who broke it?"

balmung · #6

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . , . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . , . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . , . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------+[/go]

my board does not have any star points except the 4 corners, and center

Magicwand · #7

imo people should not play 13x13 after they learn how to play go.
it is a toy for kids who does not have any patience.
or simple L&D example board.

now talk about a handycap game....wow.
it is like..let's play chess with Queen and two rook taken away handycap.

i am not trolling..i am just expressing my opinion.

RobertJasiek · #8

9x9 is a life and death and endgame game.

13x13 is an attack and defense, exchange and endgame game. Therefore it is very demanding also for top players, provided they are interested in its strategic flow.

tapir · #9

Magicwand wrote:

imo people should not play 13x13 after they learn how to play go.

i pretty much agree. (if handicap at all, don't give more than four stones.)

i doubt anyone here can play a reasonable game against 9 handicap stones on 13x13 (or 16 stones on 19x19) against anyone. even if you manage to lure the 30 kyu who takes the 9 stones into unreasonable play and end up winning, how much do you believe will he learn from such an incredibly horrible game? and how many bad habits will he pick up? i hope everyone would consider this before playing handicap games. western go players would be so much stronger on average, if people would keep this in mind.

tapir · **#10**

Helel wrote:

tapir wrote:

how many bad habits will he pick up? i hope everyone would consider this before playing handicap games. western go players would be so much stronger on average, if people would keep this in mind.

Yes, let's crush all beginners like bugs so they never go near a go board again. The absence of beginners will in truth make the average western player much stronger.

I feel a strong urge to use british english.

topazg · **#11**

tapir wrote:

Magicwand wrote:

imo people should not play 13x13 after they learn how to play go.

i pretty much agree. (if handicap at all, don't give more than four stones.)

i doubt anyone here can play a reasonable game against 9 handicap stones on 13x13 (or 16 stones on 19x19) against anyone. even if you manage to lure the 30 kyu who takes the 9 stones into unreasonable play and end up winning, how much do you believe will he learn from such an incredibly horrible game? and how many bad habits will he pick up? i hope everyone would consider this before playing handicap games. western go players would be so much stronger on average, if people would keep this in mind.

My daughter thoroughly enjoys playing me with 13 handicap stones on a 13x13 board. She's just got promoted to 12 stones.

The daughter of someone I know that runs a youth Go club in Cambridge has asked me to play her at 9 stones next time because that's the threshold for her to earn 25k in her eyes (with the ranking system at the club) - she remembers her older sister doing it about 2 years ago and wants to achieve the same thing.

Perhaps we should discourage such things?

Phelan · **#12**

I play a lot of 9x9 on OGS, since it's faster, and I really enjoy playing it.
I don't know about 13x13, since I don't play it as much, but in my opinion alternative board sizes can still be fun even when you're stronger. That besides the obvious training in life and death (and other) those games usually bring.

tapir · **#13**

topazg wrote:

Perhaps we should discourage such things?

I guess I did not make myself sufficiently clear. I am not opposed to handicap games (with sufficient handicap) as such, but against the uneducational way they are most often conducted by the player playing White. And I blame this "I play crazy stuff you won't understand and mess up" style for many of the bad habits of the amateur population in the west. Watch a professional giving a high handicap game, they play so differently (patient, educative, sober) than most amateur players I met.

When I teach (adult) beginners, I start with 9x9 and 5 handicap in the beginning and offer switching to 19x19 (with 9 stones) as we reach 2 stones handicap. I don't really know how 13x13 would fit into, probably with 4-5 stones handicap instead of 19x19 with 9 stones, but surely not 9 stones or even more on a 13x13.

topazg · **#14**

tapir wrote:

topazg wrote:

Perhaps we should discourage such things?

I guess I did not make myself sufficiently clear. I am not opposed to handicap games (with sufficient handicap) as such, but against the uneducational way they are most often conducted by the player playing White. And I blame this "I play crazy stuff you won't understand and mess up" style for many of the bad habits of the amateur population in the west. Watch a professional giving a high handicap game, they play so differently (patient, educative, sober) than most amateur players I met.

I agree, I've seen this too. I think this is actually partly based on Western amateurs feeling they have to win at all costs. The ones I have seen with professionals have been very happy to lose with a handicap if their opponent played well enough to merit it. The "oh no I'm still losing let's do something crazy" moves that I see a lot here were not present at all. I suspect this would be very different if the game was a title match or something though - professionals have no incentive to win a normal game, so "playing good go" with an intent on it being instructional is more important to them. FWIW, most handicap games I play at the club against weaker players also have little in the way of crazy must win the game at all cost moves for much the same reason.

tapir wrote:

When I teach (adult) beginners, I start with 9x9 and 5 handicap in the beginning and offer switching to 19x19 (with 9 stones) as we reach 2 stones handicap. I don't really know how 13x13 would fit into, probably with 4-5 stones handicap instead of 19x19 with 9 stones, but surely not 9 stones or even more on a 13x13.

The system I use based on a fair amount of experience in games with beginners and kids is as follows:

Code:

Handicap stones    19x19    13x13    9x9
----------------------------------------
2                  2        5        9
3                  3        8        15
4                  4        11       21
5                  5        14       27
6                  6        17       33
7                  7        20       39
8                  8        23       -
9                  9        26       -
10                 10       29       -
11                 11       32       -
12                 12       35       -
13                 13       38       -

Numbers are grade difference in strength

HermanHiddema · **#15**

topazg wrote:

Numbers are grade difference in strength

This makes the table really hard to read, might I suggest you put it the other way around?

topazg · **#16**

It makes the table long, but sure

Code:

Strength difference    19x19    13x13    9x9
--------------------------------------------
2                      2        -        -
3                      3        -        -
4                      4        -        -
5                      5        2        -
6                      6        -        -
7                      7        -        -
8                      8        3        -
9                      9        -        2
10                     10       -        -
11                     11       4        -
12                     12       -        -
13                     13       -        -
14                     -        5        -
15                     -        -        3
16                     -        -        -
17                     -        6        -
18                     -        -        -
19                     -        -        -
20                     -        7        -
21                     -        -        4
22                     -        -        -
23                     -        8        -
24                     -        -        -
25                     -        -        -
26                     -        9        -
27                     -        -        5
28                     -        -        -
29                     -        10       -
30                     -        -        -
31                     -        -        -
32                     -        11       -
33                     -        -        6
34                     -        -        -
35                     -        12       -
36                     -        -        -
37                     -        -        -
38                     -        13       -
39                     -        -        7

Numbers are handicap stones. I also have a crude certificate template (I can't remember where I found it) for awarding kyu ranks to children if anyone is interested.

EricBackus · **#17**

willemien wrote:

What is in your own opinion the best rule for maximum fixed placement on a 13 x 13 board?

Some time ago I did a little survey of where the star-points are placed on smaller board sizes. While there's no reason handicap stones have to go on the star-points, it seems reasonable to me.

Anyway, here's what I found:

Code:

IGS
    13x13    9 star-points, outer points at 4-4
     9x9     5 star-points, outer points at 3-3

KGS
    13x13    9 star-points, outer points at 4-4
     9x9     9 star-points, outer points at 3-3

DGS
    13x13    9 star-points, outer points at 4-4
     9x9     5 star-points, outer points at 3-3

Senseis Library description of star-points
    13x13    5 star-points, outer points at 4-4
     9x9     5, 4, or 1 star point, outer points at 3-3

Pictures of real boards from YMI
    13x13    5 star-points, outer points at 4-4
     9x9     1 star-point at 5-5

Nihon Kiin
    13x13    5 star-points, outer points at 4-4
     9x9     1 star-point at 5-5

Fixed handicap placement on 13 x 13

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