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Things you don't like about Go.
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Author:  Solomon [ Tue May 03, 2011 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Things you don't like about Go.
Anyone can list all the things they like about this game, but what are some of the things you don't like about it (maybe hate is a bit too strong of a word)? I'll start with a few:

  1. It is a very unforgiving game. I can play my very best for 200 moves and stay ahead, but if I make one careless move I lose the game instantly, especially in L&D scenarios.
  2. The komi system. There's just something gimmicky about it, although a crucial part of the game. Same with triple ko.
  3. In meatspace games, the counting stage requires the trust of your opponent to not mess up or try to cheat as he's rearranging the stones.
  4. I find the opening and endgame stages of Go to be kind of dull. They feel like formalities to introduce and conclude the middle game, where all the action is.
Author:  jts [ Wed May 04, 2011 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
Would you prefer that we go back to playing black and white in alternation?
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Wed May 04, 2011 12:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
The things I don't like:

1. Fun Factor
When you lose, it's hardly fun. This is obvious. And when you're a beginner, Go can be one of the most disheartening games in existence. It's one of the reasons I quit playing a few years ago. However, there is an addictive quality to it that always seems to draw you back in.

2. Different Rule Books
While there are inevitably going to be many different rule systems for a game like Go, I'm used to playing games that give you one solid set of rules. Since I'm only a DDK, I guess it doesn't necessarily matter what set of rules I'm using, but I think the game could be so much simpler with just one set of rules. But that's just my opinion.

3. Time
Go is a very time consuming hobby. And after all these years I thought playing video games was the most time consuming thing in the world! Not anymore. You spend time studying, you spend time reflecting, you spend time trying out what you learn, you spend time reviewing, and then you spend time playing what you learned from the review. It's an endless cycle and can definitely eat time.

4. Escapers
This one is self-explanatory. I've had the fortune of not running in to very many, but escaping a game, in my opinion, is far worse than losing a game. I may not always say the obligatory "thx" at the end of a game, but I never escape. :P

That about details all my problems with Go. There have been so many times where I've gotten frustrated and said enough is enough...and then came back maybe an hour or two later. :P
Author:  imabuddha [ Wed May 04, 2011 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
1. Once you Go, you can't stop.
Author:  Solomon [ Wed May 04, 2011 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
jts wrote:
Would you prefer that we go back to playing black and white in alternation?

Image
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Wed May 04, 2011 1:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
Araban wrote:
Same with triple ko.


If you worry about triple ko, why not worry about all complicated tactical situations?
Author:  imabuddha [ Wed May 04, 2011 2:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
RobertJasiek wrote:
If you worry about triple ko, why not worry about all complicated tactical situations?

I would be worried about triple ko, and all complicated tactical situations for that matter, but I'm too busy being worried about the baggage retrieval system they've got at Heathrow. :-?
Author:  Solomon [ Wed May 04, 2011 2:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
RobertJasiek wrote:
Araban wrote:
Same with triple ko.


If you worry about triple ko, why not worry about all complicated tactical situations?

It's not something I worry about, it's just something that strikes me as gimmicky.
Author:  Kirby [ Wed May 04, 2011 4:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
Go makes me feel stupid, sometimes. Sometimes it hurts my pride.

I don't like losing. I don't like making mistakes.

I don't like feeling lazy, playing a move that I haven't considered fully, and then ending up with a bad surprise.

Go reminds me of my laziness, and displays my lack of forethought. Rarely do I feel like I've played well. Often, I feel like I've played bad.

I guess I should stop here.
Author:  entropi [ Wed May 04, 2011 4:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
1. I think go is much less unforgiving than chess. In that sense no problem with go.

2. The thing I hate about go is that I don't understand it. I don't understand what a big move is, I don't understand why I cannot kill my opponents unreasonable invasion inside my moyo, I don't understand why I cannot live inside my opponents moyo, I don't understand why cannot cut my opponents haengma, I don't understand why my opponent always has more ko threats than me, etc etc etc.

Even when I improve, I don't understand why I improved, what bit of knowledge made me improve.

It's a complete twilight zone game, at least at my level.

EDIT: But thinking again, these may also be the attractions of go. So in my case, it's like a simultaneous and bi-directional love/hate relationship.
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Wed May 04, 2011 5:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
entropi wrote:
1. I think go is much less unforgiving than chess. In that sense no problem with go.

2. The thing I hate about go is that I don't understand it. I don't understand what a big move is, I don't understand why I cannot kill my opponents unreasonable invasion inside my moyo, I don't understand why I cannot live inside my opponents moyo, I don't understand why cannot cut my opponents haengma, I don't understand why my opponent always has more ko threats than me, etc etc etc.

Even when I improve, I don't understand why I improved, what bit of knowledge made me improve.

It's a complete twilight zone game, at least at my level.

EDIT: But thinking again, these may also be the attractions of go. So in my case, it's like a simultaneous and bi-directional love/hate relationship.


I can relate with everything you said there.
Author:  Horibe [ Wed May 04, 2011 6:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
Araban wrote:
Anyone can list all the things they like about this game, but what are some of the things you don't like about it (maybe hate is a bit too strong of a word)? I'll start with a few:

  1. It is a very unforgiving game. I can play my very best for 200 moves and stay ahead, but if I make one careless move I lose the game instantly, especially in L&D scenarios.
  2. The komi system. There's just something gimmicky about it, although a crucial part of the game. Same with triple ko.
  3. In meatspace games, the counting stage requires the trust of your opponent to not mess up or try to cheat as he's rearranging the stones.
  4. I find the opening and endgame stages of Go to be kind of dull. They feel like formalities to introduce and conclude the middle game, where all the action is.


Interesting idea for a list. I would like to comment on these.

1. I agree with this one, but as harsh as it is, this unforgiving nature is one of the reasons I love it too.

2. Can't say I am bothered by this.

3. I hate the phrase "meatspace". I have never had an issue in the counting in years of face to face play. If a game is close, I might mention, "Let's be careful" but I can not think of a time where I felt someone intentionally cheated in the counting. It does take some time, of course, but I find this useful decompression as opposed to annoying.

4. I can understand this one - I do not agree necessarily, but we all have our favorite parts of the game.
Author:  mw42 [ Wed May 04, 2011 6:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
I don't like that there is no dramatic way to resign. In chess, you can slam your king down on the board or, if you want to be more theatric, build a pagan altar and place your king on it as a sacrifice (you lose the game, but you might get some nice weather out of the deal). In go, what can you do? Play an illegal move... place two moves simultaneously? :roll: Lame.

Seriously, go upsets me for a similar reason as Kirby. Win or lose, I often feel like I played horribly and "luck" alone explains a win. In addition, I have a compulsion to purge these games, but I cannot so I feel like I am branded. :cry:

However, I do love the game because I am a masochist. :twisted:
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Wed May 04, 2011 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
mw42 wrote:
I don't like that there is no dramatic way to resign. In chess, you can slam your king down on the board or, if you want to be more theatric, build a pagan altar and place your king on it as a sacrifice (you lose the game, but you might get some nice weather out of the deal). In go, what can you do? Play an illegal move... place two moves simultaneously? :roll: Lame.


Sweeping all the stones onto the floor and storming off is pretty dramatic, no?
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Wed May 04, 2011 7:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
daniel_the_smith wrote:
mw42 wrote:
I don't like that there is no dramatic way to resign. In chess, you can slam your king down on the board or, if you want to be more theatric, build a pagan altar and place your king on it as a sacrifice (you lose the game, but you might get some nice weather out of the deal). In go, what can you do? Play an illegal move... place two moves simultaneously? :roll: Lame.


Sweeping all the stones onto the floor and storming off is pretty dramatic, no?


But then you'll have quite a mess to clean up. My suggestion would be to randomly start taking stones off the board so your opponent's like, "what the fudge, dude?"

Well, I guess that's not really dramatic, but....yeah.
Author:  topazg [ Wed May 04, 2011 7:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
hailthorn011 wrote:
But then you'll have quite a mess to clean up. My suggestion would just be to randomly start taking stones off the board so you're opponent's like, "what the fudge, dude?"


That would be ... soo ... funny. I really would love to see that at club or at a tournament or something, it would make my day :D
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Wed May 04, 2011 7:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
I used to be a competent chess player but I gave up because I found I didn't like most chessplayers.

I've since met many chess masters and even world champions, and have occasionally been inspired to go back to chess, but again most chess players have put me off.

You can draw your own inferences about go.

Quote:
I don't like that there is no dramatic way to resign. In chess, you can slam your king down on the board or, if you want to be more theatric, build a pagan altar and place your king on it as a sacrifice (you lose the game, but you might get some nice weather out of the deal). In go, what can you do? Play an illegal move... place two moves simultaneously


You obviously don't know about Sakata pushing all the stones over into Rin's lap in order to start the obligatory post mortem in a title match. In fact it is said that the Japanese phrase for resigning (chuu oshi) means more or less that - pushing the stones into the middle of the board - though it may be a folk etymology, like ko = aeon.

There is also this story from our New In Go:

Eventually White got to play 7 (252 in the game). At that point, as Kajiwara recorded - no doubt gleefully on behalf of the Nihon Ki-in - in an article called "Tales of Modern Blunders" in Kido, "As soon as I played 252, Sumino leapt up. He yelped something and ran round the middle of the room and then resigned." That sounds like a style worth copying...
Author:  TMark [ Wed May 04, 2011 7:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
I also used to be a chess player and lived for a while in north London. One time, when there were no go clubs to visit, I thought I would look in on the local chess club and play a game or two. In one game, I saw a brilliant (for me, at least) way to win and when checkmate came I scooped up the knight and banged it down on the board with a triumphant "Mate!". Instantly, everyone in the room turned to say "sssshhhhh" and the noise level sank back to that of an empty church. There was no post-mortem to stoke my pride on my great win and, in fact, no conversation at all. I left and never returned.

One thing that has not yet crept into the normal go club.

Best wishes.
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Wed May 04, 2011 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
topazg wrote:
hailthorn011 wrote:
But then you'll have quite a mess to clean up. My suggestion would just be to randomly start taking stones off the board so you're opponent's like, "what the fudge, dude?"


That would be ... soo ... funny. I really would love to see that at club or at a tournament or something, it would make my day :D


Same here. Although I'm not sure how I'd react if my opponent did that to me. <<
Author:  amnal [ Wed May 04, 2011 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Things you don't like about Go.
hailthorn011 wrote:
topazg wrote:
hailthorn011 wrote:
But then you'll have quite a mess to clean up. My suggestion would just be to randomly start taking stones off the board so you're opponent's like, "what the fudge, dude?"


That would be ... soo ... funny. I really would love to see that at club or at a tournament or something, it would make my day :D


Same here. Although I'm not sure how I'd react if my opponent did that to me. <<


I'm not sure how you could choose anything other than taking stones off yourself, alternating with your opponent.

To do otherwise would be rude.
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