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What does 'kyu' mean?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3943		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  Mnemonic [ Mon May 30, 2011 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  What does 'kyu' mean?
Please note: I know that kyu players range from 30 (or 50, depending on how you count) to 1 kyu. But in my experience when a dan player or a professional speaks of 'the kyu player' they are talking about sdks.

The options
First off: the obligatory distinction between upper, middle and lower kyu. In theory only the 6k-4k range would meet the 'kyu' criteria.
6k-2k: This is your average (6k) or standard (2k) kyu (I'm using KGS in this survey)
7k-3k: Imho this is the target audience whenever someone gives a lesson for 'kyu players'
Author:  Kirby [ Mon May 30, 2011 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does 'kyu' mean?
IMO, "kyu" applies to all "k" ranks.
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Mon May 30, 2011 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does 'kyu' mean?
I would take such statements at face value unless there are strong contextual reasons not to. So, if the answer is not "<= 1k", it depends too much on the context for there to be a general rule...
Author:  Jordus [ Mon May 30, 2011 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does 'kyu' mean?
9k-1k... the full range of SDK...
Author:  Mnemonic [ Mon May 30, 2011 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does 'kyu' mean?
I've added some voting choices since it seems I did not cover all. For everyone that voted until now: you have to vote again (sorry :sad: , but I hope your primary choice is now included in the selection)
Kirby wrote:
IMO, "kyu" applies to all "k" ranks.

Of course it does. But I specified my 'kyu' to that often used by stronger players in commentaries.
daniel_the_smith wrote:
I would take such statements at face value unless there are strong contextual reasons not to. So, if the answer is not "<= 1k", it depends too much on the context for there to be a general rule...

In theory I agree, but there are huge divergences, even in sdk. I've noticed that several commentaries note that 'kyu player' often play this or that. I'm wondering at which level these commentaries are aimed.



Maybe I should add a personal example. When I was ddk: whenever I watched/read commentaries and somebody mentioned a 'kyu player' would play at A, I often thought: "Whoa, what a move! I would have never thought of that!" And then the pro would go on to show a "refutation". In my eyes it never looked that bad. Honestly, as a ddk, I would have rather player the wrong 'kyu move' than play any of my alternatives.
Now, as a 7k, the 'kyu moves' are more often than not my fist instinct. So to see them refuted is a nice lesson. However I wonder if 1k's would really consider my plays mistakes or rather “you played THAT? How the HELL did you ever make it past 5k!?!"
Author:  Solomon [ Mon May 30, 2011 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does 'kyu' mean?
1. Thread title question and poll question are two very different questions.
2. A kyu player is a kyu player. A statement directed to a kyu player can be directed to a 30k or a 1k or whatever in-between. Any implication otherwise depends on context. It's no different than when someone says a particular tsumego is 'for dan players'. Without context (the actual tsumego), it could mean for 1d players (Gengen Gokyo) just as much as it could mean for 7d players (Igo Hatsuyoron).
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Mon May 30, 2011 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does 'kyu' mean?
To me, 'Kyu player' means 1k-30k.

Nouns have precise meanings. That is why we have adjectives.
Author:  Kirby [ Tue May 31, 2011 3:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What does 'kyu' mean?
Mnemonic wrote:
...
Maybe I should add a personal example. When I was ddk: whenever I watched/read commentaries and somebody mentioned a 'kyu player' would play at A, I often thought: "Whoa, what a move! I would have never thought of that!" And then the pro would go on to show a "refutation". In my eyes it never looked that bad. Honestly, as a ddk, I would have rather player the wrong 'kyu move' than play any of my alternatives.
Now, as a 7k, the 'kyu moves' are more often than not my fist instinct. So to see them refuted is a nice lesson. However I wonder if 1k's would really consider my plays mistakes or rather “you played THAT? How the HELL did you ever make it past 5k!?!"


I don't think it's necessarily useful to assign a rank range to what a pro or dan player says when they say a "kyu player would play this". If anything, I'd say that you can substitute the phrase, "a kyu player would..." with "an inexperienced player would..." or "a naive player would...", or in some cases even, "a poor player would...".

In my experience, since kyu ranks are weaker than dan ranks, saying "a kyu player would do this" is the same as saying, "this is what you should not do".

The distinction between 1k and 1d is kind of silly, I suppose, but since it's easy to divide amateur ranks into two groups - "bad player" (kyu) and "not quite so bad player" (dan), it's easy to use "kyu" as a term to specify the general concept of "weaker player".
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Tue May 31, 2011 4:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What does 'kyu' mean?
Quote:
I don't think it's necessarily useful to assign a rank range to what a pro or dan player says when they say a "kyu player would play this".


Yes, this is a western conceit (the usual fixation with numbers?) An Oriental pro actually would rarely say "a kyu player". Kyu just means class/grade and so requires an adjective (as jb says) and so the usual phraseology would be "high-grade" etc. Still fuzzy, but better, and with no problems as to which end of the scale is meant.

I agree with kirby that making the effort to reword the phrase is worthwhile, though "kyu player" is harmless enough. Two things I do find pernicious, though. One is "DDK". It sounds to me like dan players referring to a mass of players as the booboisie. The other is the necromantic belief among kyu players that dan grades mean that amateurs actually know anything significant about go techniques.
Author:  Kirby [ Tue May 31, 2011 4:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What does 'kyu' mean?
John Fairbairn wrote:
...The other is the necromantic belief among kyu players that dan grades mean that amateurs actually know anything significant about go techniques.


It might be worth it to repeat this. There's sometimes pressure to become a "dan" player so that you are not bad at go anymore. But I think that being a dan player doesn't fix the problem.
Author:  hyperpape [ Tue May 31, 2011 5:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What does 'kyu' mean?
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Nouns have precise meanings. That is why we have adjectives.
:shock:
Author:  palapiku [ Tue May 31, 2011 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What does 'kyu' mean?
John Fairbairn wrote:
Two things I do find pernicious, though. One is "DDK". It sounds to me like dan players referring to a mass of players as the booboisie.

As a proud SDK, I have no problem with that!
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Tue May 31, 2011 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What does 'kyu' mean?
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Nouns have precise meanings. That is why we have adjectives.


Must... resist... temptation... to quote Carroll. ;-)
Author:  ethanb [ Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does 'kyu' mean?
John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
I don't think it's necessarily useful to assign a rank range to what a pro or dan player says when they say a "kyu player would play this".


Yes, this is a western conceit (the usual fixation with numbers?) An Oriental pro actually would rarely say "a kyu player". Kyu just means class/grade and so requires an adjective (as jb says) and so the usual phraseology would be "high-grade" etc. Still fuzzy, but better, and with no problems as to which end of the scale is meant.

I agree with kirby that making the effort to reword the phrase is worthwhile, though "kyu player" is harmless enough. Two things I do find pernicious, though. One is "DDK". It sounds to me like dan players referring to a mass of players as the booboisie. The other is the necromantic belief among kyu players that dan grades mean that amateurs actually know anything significant about go techniques.


Nobody else seems to bite, so I will...

Necromantic? I'd understand if the belief had ever been laid to rest in the first place, but it seems like it's been alive and well since the Nihon-Kiin started selling diplomas. But probably I'm just not getting the pun. :)
Author:  balmung [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What does 'kyu' mean?
kyu is japanese for 9 just learned that on rosetta stone today lol
Author:  illluck [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What does 'kyu' mean?
@balmung: It's not the same kyu.
Author:  dangomango [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does 'kyu' mean?
this poll is a troll

"kyu" means grade/level in korean/chinese
anybody with a k next to their rank is a kyu

case solved!
Author:  EeveeM [ Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What does 'kyu' mean?
the word "kyu" I believe means 'stone' in translation

if you look into how the levels and handicap is used, each kyu level up means you lose by 10 stones less etc. f.e. a 4k would need to have a 2 stone handi against a 2k. On top of that, if a 4k played against a 2k even, theoretically (often not the case, but theoretically) they'd average around a loss of 20 points. each stone counts as 10 points. and so handi is used as compensation compared to the opponents strength.

That's the way I learned it at least..

Past that, the previous question was to explain each level of kyu, not just what people refer kyus as.


30ks, how I learned it, this is a complete beginner, knowing practially nothing about the board.

up till 20k, a player learns what liberties are, how to capture, how to escape, and how to fight to an effective degree. Among special moves these people tend to learn includes snap back, connect and dies (where you atari something and lead it to it's eventual death), ladders, and more. This can vary to a strength of 15k.

up till 10k, people learn how to use their new found "special moves" even more effectively to gain more points, or get in a better position.

By this point, a player should know how to read to at least a very basic level.

the fight to 1k, then is how to read out the situations of the board, look at the whole board, and understand how the board works as well as what move is necessary to get a desired effect, and what your opponent may do. Usually by this level you are quite experienced. and the rest of the accent up to dan tends to be varied depending on the individual, how they study, and what they work on, as well as how often they play.

As I understand from a friend of mine, every player has a strength and weakness, one thing that's very strong, and other things that are less than that level that keep you down. It constantly varies and averages out to the "rank" you have. So if you're strong at reading, you may lose to someone who does not allow situations where reading is useful. If you're good at building moyo, you may lose to a strong fighter, etc.

improving what you're "weaker" at, may improve your rank, as well as becoming better at what you're already strong at. This is something each player decides for themselves.

players that are 4d level usually means you're quite serious about the game. Though in my personal opinion, if you get close to dan you're pretty serious already.


but, just to throw this point out here, just because a player might be strong, does not always mean they are an effective teacher. Becoming an effective teacher comes with time and effort, just as learning how to play does.
Author:  EdLee [ Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
EeveeM wrote:
the word "kyu" I believe means 'stone' in translation
The character 級, pronounced 'kyuu' (long 'uu' sound) in Japanese,
means: level/grade/class/rank/step/degree, but not stone.
Author:  EeveeM [ Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
EeveeM wrote:
the word "kyu" I believe means 'stone' in translation
The character 級, pronounced 'kyuu' (long 'uu' sound) in Japanese,
means: level/grade/class/rank/step/degree, but not stone.


Ah, ok, ^^ thanks Edlee. I'm glad I got corrected. I've thought that for at least 2 years.
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