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| Author: | cyclops [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | "to aim" in go |
Building a hiding place the hunter aimed at shooting the dangerous lion. The hunter aimed at the lion. "to aim at" in the first sentence corresponds with the meaning found in my dictionary: "to make an effort towards". That is the effect is not immediate. He prepares for it. "to aim at" in the second sentence corresponds to "to direct a weapon towards". That is the effect is immediate unless the lion prevents it. ( hiding, fleeing, counterattacking ). The context usually provides the correct interpretation. From english go books I can not get a consistent interpretation of how "to aim at point p" is used. Mostly the interpretation that fits is : "to give the opponent the unwelcome choice between suffering immediately from your p or losing tempo to protect against it". This interpretation is in line with the second sentence above. To give an example from "Breakthrough to shodan" by Myamoto and Davies. ( problem 2 ) About black a Davies writes. "... This invasion is something to be aimed at after playing black b." Usually I like Davies' style very much but here I am in doubt about what he means. If white after Bb doesn't protect against the invasion should black immediately invade as soon as he gets sente or should he prepare for it. Here I opt for the immediate invasion. Other times the prepatory interpretation seems to fit. My goal with this thread is to gather more examples from books with different interpretations for "to aim at point p". So you can expect a regular update. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
cyclops wrote: should black immediately invade as soon as he gets sente or should he prepare for it. (My emphasis.) It depends on the rest of the board and other factors, such as the style or preference of the players,or silly as it may sound, whether it's a 2-day game or 30-second blitz (less time means more difficult to read a complicated invasion!  )Given only a partial board, it's understandable why Davies did not specify when is the correct time to invade. |
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| Author: | gowan [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "to aim" in go |
The word "aim" as used in go literature makes most sense if you think of it as meaning that something is a target for possible future exploitation. It is almost always implied that this exploitation is to be taken when the time and conditions are right. In books translated from Japanese, the Japanese word nerai has often been translated as aim, though there is some controversy over this translation. See this Sensei's Library page: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Nerai for more information. |
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| Author: | cyclops [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: It depends on the rest of the board and other factors, such as the style or preference of the players, or silly as it may sound, whether it's a 2-day game or 30-second blitz (less time means more difficult to read a complicated invasion! )Given only a partial board, it's understandable why Davies did not specify when is the correct time to invade. Davies displayed the whole board. Because in this thread I am only interested in how to interpretate "to aim at" in go books I left out most of the board. To me it seems that after the play in the corner the situation is ready for the invasion and does not need to be prepared any further. OC there may be bigger or more urgent points around than the invasion. An other example: Bill Spight wrote: Professional opinion: In Kono Te, Nanmoku (How Large is this Play?), Ishida Yoshio shows this diagram. While pros do play the approach to the bottom left corner, as well as  , Ishida says that is a top class big play (Ohba). OC, it aims to invade on the right side, but he still calls it big rather than urgent. Bill uses "to aim at" more transparent than Davies in my first example. I think he means that after 1 the right side is ready for an invasion unless w protects. B is putting his finger on the trigger. edit: thx gowan, your reply crossed mine edit2: your link is very helpfull. |
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| Author: | John Fairbairn [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "to aim" in go |
Quote: From english go books I can not get a consistent interpretation of how "to aim at point p" is used. Mostly the interpretation that fits is : "to give the opponent the unwelcome choice between suffering immediately from your p or losing tempo to protect against it". This interpretation is in line with the second sentence above. You have stumbled across a long-standing problem that I have tried to discuss several times. Even though few western players recognise the term, one of the commonest technical words in Japanese when talking about fuseki (I know because I have done word counts) is nerai. It is especially common in the higher level of commentaries. The problem for western players has been that it has not been properly identified as a technical word, a fact obscured by the many different translations used. Often "aim at" is used. There is, however, a problem there, maybe a cultural one rather than a semantic one. For some reason, whenever you tell a western player that there is a nerai somewhere (i.e. something to aim at) he seems to think of guns and shooting, and before you know where you are he goes bang and you have a full-scale war in your hands. The Japanese verb nerau can certainly be used in the sense of taking aim at a tiger (and then shooting it), but the noun form prediminates in go. To translate that also as "aim" brings in somewhat different connotations (objective, goal - all are a little bit fuzzy). "Target" is sometimes better but does not often fit well. There is (apparently) no good single translation. My own recommendation is to think of a usage of nerau where we would not use "aim at" in English: a crouching cat watching a mouse, or a snake a frog, i.e. waiting to pounce when an opportunity presents itself. In other words, look for weak points in the opponent's position (mainly fuseki stage, remember, so we are talking about rather loose positions), and think of them as harbouring a mouse or a frog, and you are the cat or snake. Most important, you must have the patience of a cat or snake. Remember, you have to manoeuvre patiently so that you can pounce, so do NOT think of yourself as a hunter with a rifle. |
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| Author: | cyclops [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "to aim" in go |
Thanks, John. Both your reply and Gowans link are most helpful. My first sentence: "Building a hiding place the hunter aimed at shooting the dangerous lion" is not a bad idea. Only he should fight the lion bare handed 
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| Author: | HermanHiddema [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "to aim" in go |
Perhaps eyeing could be used sometimes? E.g: Black is eyeing the invasion at B and Black is eyeing the aji in the corner. To me, though I am not a native speaker, this seems to confer a definite interest, but without an immediate sense of urgency. It does seem to confer a more urgent feeling than "watching" or "keeping an eye on". |
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| Author: | BaghwanB [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "to aim" in go |
HermanHiddema wrote: Perhaps eyeing could be used sometimes? E.g: Black is eyeing the invasion at B and Black is eyeing the aji in the corner. To me, though I am not a native speaker, this seems to confer a definite interest, but without an immediate sense of urgency. It does seem to confer a more urgent feeling than "watching" or "keeping an eye on". Or something along the lines of but less awkward than "creates the opportunity for"? That's my interpretation of "aims" in this context. Basically you are saying that "I can now reasonably play the invasion at 'a' or the slide at 'b'" or whatever the point aimed at is. Bruce "Aim logging off now" Young |
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| Author: | John Fairbairn [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "to aim" in go |
Quote: That's my interpretation of "aims" in this context. Basically you are saying that "I can now reasonably play the invasion at 'a' or the slide at 'b'" or whatever the point aimed at is. No - the word "now" is the giveaway. You're skipping the patience bit (and in general that's the biggest single failing amateur go players have). Obviously there comes a point when you might play at the nerai point, but the real value of the technical term is as an evaluative term. It is not a mere descriptive term. It is a term that helps you evaluate a position or a line of play. By saying there is a nerai here and a nerai there (in, out and shake it all about), you are adding to the list of plus points that mark a variation as good. This says nothing about when you will actually play them (if at all - the threat may be stronger than the execution). If it troubles you, I suggest thinking of it as just a kind of aji that occurs in the fuseki. It's rather more focused than ordinary aji, and it tends to work on a strategic scale rather than a tactical one, but aji schmaji, everything tastes the same if you put enough tomato ketchup on. |
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| Author: | BaghwanB [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "to aim" in go |
Thanks for the clarification. Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly my description would be basically correct though if you clarify the lack of immediacy? Like a "groundwork has been laid" type of situation? Thanks again, Bruce "Now, NOw, NOW, NOW!" Young |
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| Author: | John Fairbairn [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "to aim" in go |
Quote: Bruce "Now, NOw, NOW, NOW!" Young. T Mark often mentions the American lady who said, "God grant me patience - and I want it NOW!" Quote: Thanks for the clarification. Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly my description would be basically correct though if you clarify the lack of immediacy? Like a "groundwork has been laid" type of situation? Obviously closer, but still doesn't feel right to me. The re-drafting would produce "I can reasonably play the invasion at 'a' or the slide at 'b'" or whatever the point aimed at is." (a) You don't know yet if it's reasonable (b) You are following your nose and thinking about what you can do next. Where's the aspect of evaluation of the moves you've just played? I.e. standing back and being patient. Why mention invading - why not defend? Nerai is a technical term for a reason - it's a little more than a mere "weak point". It's may not quite enough to be called a concept, but it has definite overtones that weak point doesn't have, the most important being that it's relatively hidden. Like a hungry cat or snake, you need to do some work to spot it. Although it's utterly long-winded, I think the I thought process has to go something like this: "I've just played this sequence. Looking carefully, I can spy some opportunities for me for nice plays later. That is, the end result is that it leaves one or two specific target points (nerai) I can aim at later. That perhaps means this sequence can be evaluated highly. If so, that takes care of my play so far. But what about planning for the future? Well, those targets are tempting but I can't go off half-cock. If I do want to play there, I need first to plan to create the right conditions for playing there (I can't risk a counter-attack). But I don't actually need to plan to play there at all. The beauty of a nerai for me is that it gives my opponent a sore head thinking about it. He may even waste a move to eliminate it - that's good enough for me. Of course, because a nerai tends to be a little bit hidden he might not have even seen it. That's even better for me - it keeps it on ice. The important thing is to be PATIENT. I don't have to kill my opponent. I can let him worry himself to death. I will first make my own groups stable and let him keep worrying, or waste a move, or sleepwalk into a nasty surprise LATER." Mind you, it's quite easy to make too much of nerai. What it really boils down to is little more than a reminder, once you have played a sequence, to evaluate it in detail. Look for these hidden targets. If they exist in your favour, give the sequence a plus score. If none are created, think about the whole point of playing the sequence - you did it for a reason surely? If nerai exist but are in your camp, look at another sequence. All that may be stating the obvious, but it has been said by a pro that amateurs, but western players in particular, have a habit of playing by feel and not evaluating the result in these sorts of ways. Nevertheless, as I said before, if you were to draw up a checklist of criteria to be used in evaluating fuseki play, nerai would be very high on the list. There aren't too many easy criteria for fuseki evaluation, so grab this one. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "to aim" in go |
I normally feel more comfortable with something like "a follow up" as a translation of nerai, e.g. Black has a follow up at "a". To me at least it has a more neutral, less urgent feeling. One problem that I see is that nerai tends to be used as part of an explanation rather than as part of an overall evaluation. In my experience pros see A LOT more follow ups, spread all over the board, than amateurs do. Therefore the use of nerai in an explanation (e.g. of a local situation) tends to give the idea that a particular case is nearly unique in its availability, when in fact it is not. I think this is part of the reason pros do not rush to exploit such cases. If the opponent spends a stone to fix one situation, not only have they not used that stone to gain something somewhere else, but there are also all these other opportunities that are still available elsewhere on the board. JF mentions the element of something hidden, but there is a big exception to that, which is the shared elements of joseki and common fuseki. There are many commonly understood nerai such as those examples from books used in the earlier posts in this thread. At least among the pros I think there is little mystery there. At that same time, I think JF has caught the essence of nerai in the real dynamics of top-level Go. Top pros win or lose based on the hidden rather than the obvious elements of the board. Who finds the more subtle implications in a position first and exploits them to their benefit, gains an advantage. |
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| Author: | cyclops [ Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "to aim" in go |
Thx for all the useful and extensive answers. I start to understand the concept of nerai, I hope. In retrospect I should have studied http://senseis.xmp.net/?Nerai before to save you guys all the efforts. Just as a test of myself another example from "Breakthrough to shodan" of Myamoto and Davies. ( Ch 10 problem 10 L&D ) Above is one of the sequences recommended for B after W touches the corner. The book states that after B9 B is satified because he is still threatening a placement at a. So a is nerai. Or because the threat a is confined to the corner should we say B gets aji in the corner at a. It seems nerai, aji and good endgame move are like concepts but different in scale. |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "to aim" in go |
Off topic, but... Wouldn't this  be better? White is then unconditionally alive, removing black's follow-up (nerai) of 'a' later.
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| Author: | Laman [ Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "to aim" in go |
i usually interpret 'aiming' at something in go as a move you can look forward to and your opponent is worried about. i am happy my understanding of this term is in line with the explanations John Fairbairn gave here |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: "to aim" in go |
John Fairbairn wrote: T Mark often mentions the American lady who said, "God grant me patience - and I want it NOW!" She must be the sister of the one who said, "God grant me chastity -- now and then."
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| Author: | tapir [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | nerai, aji, translation, confusion |
Is the thread still active? Imo, the lacking exposure of "nerai" as a concept in the western world is due to the overinflated use of the term "aji" for the whole field of meaning covered by "aji" and "nerai" and ? in japanese. I would blame the inability to find a good translation for "aji" for this result. On SL there was a proposal to translate aji as "funny business" a while ago. I very much disliked it, until I heard one of my teachers (Jennie Shen) use it quite regularly, although I didn't ask what term (chinese in that case) she has in mind when saying it. I am still not sure, whether this would make a good term, but if people use the term "aji" all around you like a magical wand, even such a fundamental concept like "nerai" is easily lost. But I have the suspicion that many people use "aji" the word for what is meant by "nerai" in japanese, while the term "aji" is what is really lost to western amateurs - or more honestly, to me. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:03 pm ] |
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tapir wrote: "funny business" a while ago. I very much disliked it That was me, and I still like it very much, and she got it from me, so you can blame me. 
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| Author: | tapir [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: That was me, and I still like it very much, and she got it from me, so you can blame me. When my teacher endorses it, I am following suit. I just had trouble to understand it first and it doesn't help me much in explaining "aji" in German. |
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