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Studying Strategy
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=461		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Kirby [ Fri May 07, 2010 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Studying Strategy
Up until now, I have held to the idea that being strong means being able to read more moves ahead. If I can outperform my opponent in the local tesujis and life and death problems on the board, then I can win the game. I've pretty much held to that philosophy.

The two recent Malkovich games that I've started up are, I think, the first slow turn-based games that I've played (by myself, that is. Last year we had a forum-wide game, if I recall). Since the games are so slow, it seems that reading ability is less of an issue. Theoretically, both sides have enough time to read out any local life and death or tesuji situations (in theory, that is ;)). This has made me realize that I'm probably pretty weak at strategy (not to say that I'm perfect at reading - this is just speaking in relative terms).

How can I improve upon my global strategy? One idea I can think of is to study pro games, but I've always "felt" more efficient in learning when doing go problems. What do you guys think?
Author:  Phelan [ Fri May 07, 2010 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
Try doing whole board problems? Those should help with strategy, I think.

I have no idea what to recommend to you though. Though I've seen some people say good things about 501 opening problems, I've also seen people say bad things about it.

Or you could try playing a mixed game with a new account: you only play until midgame, and then let mogo or some other bot take over. The idea is that you can't win through tactics, you'd have to have a good position before it gets to that.

Of course, you're much stronger than me, so I could be way off.
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Fri May 07, 2010 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
I think the first step is, knowing which groups are strong and weak (includes knowing where good points for invading/reduction are), where the big points are and which potential follow-ups they have (like approaching a corner and chose a specific Joseki or splitting a side).
Then I think, one has to be clear, if one is ahead in territory (counting) or influence and play accordingly (attack with influence for instance - see above: knowing weak points).

And all this in every single move ^^
Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri May 07, 2010 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
I got a lot out of studying Takagawa, but I don't know of much by him that is in print in English. I can recommend studying pro games. :)

Here is an idea, based on some advice by Jowa:

Play over pro games up to around move 100. Pause at move 30 or so, and move 50 or so. At each of these three points, assess the position and try to predict future territory. Then go to the end of the game and see how well you did.

Good luck! :)
Author:  ketchup [ Fri May 07, 2010 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
Kirby wrote:
Up until now, I have held to the idea that being strong means being able to read more moves ahead. If I can outperform my opponent in the local tesujis and life and death problems on the board, then I can win the game. I've pretty much held to that philosophy.


I agree with this. I do not think you are wrong in taking this stance.

Learning strategy is for 9ds. Learning to push yourself to read out further than what you think is necessary should take priority. Now if only I could follow my own words.
Author:  MagicMagor [ Sat May 08, 2010 4:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
Quote:
Learning strategy is for 9ds. Learning to push yourself to read out further than what you think is necessary should take priority.

I don't think it's this extreme.
I think tactical strength(=reading) and strategic strength are both needed to become strong. If you neglet one part you will hit a road block sooner or later.
Wether someone should improve his reading or his strategic thinking depends on the overall playing strength of the person and of course his personal strength in these areas. If he is already strong at reading, but weak at strategy, studying a bit of strategy is the right choice. I doubt you can breach into the dan-ranks by reading alone.

@topic
Try reading some books, theory mixed with some problems. I found "Attack&Defense" really helped my middle-game even though i suck at reading.
Author:  Magicwand [ Sat May 08, 2010 4:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
i find you problem to be a lack of experience.
only way you can improve is to play many games as possible with stronger players ONLY.
if you desire i can play you game after game so you can have more experience.
Author:  mdobbins [ Sat May 08, 2010 5:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
Phelan wrote:
Try doing whole board problems? Those should help with strategy, I think.


Play on a turn based server with just a few more games than you can keep in your head at once, then each move is a real life whole board problem.
Author:  Kirby [ Sat May 08, 2010 8:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
Magicwand wrote:
i find you problem to be a lack of experience.
only way you can improve is to play many games as possible with stronger players ONLY.
if you desire i can play you game after game so you can have more experience.


Awesome! I might take you up on this.
Author:  Kirby [ Sat May 08, 2010 8:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
Thanks for the other tips, everyone.
Author:  Jedo [ Sat May 08, 2010 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
ketchup wrote:

Learning strategy is for 9ds. Learning to push yourself to read out further than what you think is necessary should take priority.



I don't really agree with this. It doesn't matter how well you can read if you don't know what you're trying to read out. It's a sense of strategy and direction of plays that tells what you're looking for.
Author:  topazg [ Sat May 08, 2010 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
Jedo wrote:
I don't really agree with this. It doesn't matter how well you can read if you don't know what you're trying to read out. It's a sense of strategy and direction of plays that tells what you're looking for.


I agree with you 100% Jedo. Strategy is utterly vital. Fighting is necessary, and will always happen when you're ahead because your opponent should start fights, so you need to read too, but strategy is key... why do you think "Direction of Play" and "Attack and Defense" are such highly regarded books?
Author:  Phelan [ Sat May 08, 2010 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
I have an account where I only play by instinct.

It usually gets a better rating than my normal account, where I take the time to read things out, and try to play more normally. :-?
Author:  Vesa [ Sat May 08, 2010 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
I just wonder if the weakish japanese/chinese/korean amateur players ponder the same things as here. It seems totally ridiculous to me that you can win the game by a superior strategy if your tactics suck compared to your opponent.

I repeat: you can have the self-betraying feeling that your strategy is ok, but if you ever fail to read deeper than your opponent, you're in trouble.

Cheers,
Vesa
Author:  xed_over [ Sat May 08, 2010 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
Magicwand wrote:
only way you can improve is to play many games as possible with stronger players ONLY.

oh no, but then he'll get the dreaded scarlet tilde ~
Author:  Fedya [ Sat May 08, 2010 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
Helel wrote:
If I may be even more controversial, consider playing games where you only concentrate on feeling the board, and simply ask the stones where they want to be played. Again of course with a thorough review afterwards.

My stones don't talk to me. :-?

(By the way, you don't have to type in carriage returns; the board software automatically wraps the lines.)
Author:  ketchup [ Sat May 08, 2010 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
topazg wrote:
Jedo wrote:
I don't really agree with this. It doesn't matter how well you can read if you don't know what you're trying to read out. It's a sense of strategy and direction of plays that tells what you're looking for.


I agree with you 100% Jedo. Strategy is utterly vital. Fighting is necessary, and will always happen when you're ahead because your opponent should start fights, so you need to read too, but strategy is key... why do you think "Direction of Play" and "Attack and Defense" are such highly regarded books?


It was always my thinking that once you learn to read(see how stones flow in an accurate and fast manner), then things such as direction would come naturally. I think limiting the term reading to mean only fights(and to be used only when you are fighting) is lacking. I use it to describe all parts of the game.
Author:  Magicwand [ Sat May 08, 2010 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
Kirby wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
i find you problem to be a lack of experience.
only way you can improve is to play many games as possible with stronger players ONLY.
if you desire i can play you game after game so you can have more experience.


Awesome! I might take you up on this.


many people think i only use my sense to play which is not true..

i dont have to read each and every move to know the answer because my reading is stronger.
my first look is probably more accurate than weaker player trying few minutes.

also my planning stage is deeper than others. i see many more weaknesses and strong points that weaker players can miss.

i believe it is because i can eliminate many useless reading i can concentrate on things that are more relivent.
it is a product of experience and practices. no other way.
Author:  Phelan [ Sat May 08, 2010 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
Fedya wrote:
My stones don't talk to me. :-?

You need to play more. And don't even think about eating or sleeping until they do.
Author:  Phelan [ Sat May 08, 2010 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying Strategy
ketchup wrote:
topazg wrote:
Jedo wrote:
I don't really agree with this. It doesn't matter how well you can read if you don't know what you're trying to read out. It's a sense of strategy and direction of plays that tells what you're looking for.


I agree with you 100% Jedo. Strategy is utterly vital. Fighting is necessary, and will always happen when you're ahead because your opponent should start fights, so you need to read too, but strategy is key... why do you think "Direction of Play" and "Attack and Defense" are such highly regarded books?


It was always my thinking that once you learn to read(see how stones flow in an accurate and fast manner), then things such as direction would come naturally. I think limiting the term reading to mean only fights(and to be used only when you are fighting) is lacking. I use it to describe all parts of the game.

I think that definition is too broad to be useful. Reading is seeing sequences of moves. Good reading only looks at the interesting sequences.

To me strategy is being able to create good positions on the board. Ones that even if you can't read fully, you have an advantage in playing near.
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