Life In 19x19 :: A problem with a student

Just let him play the way he wants to. He's 12k and just playing games will help him get better.

oren wrote:

Just let him play the way he wants to. He's 12k and just playing games will help him get better.

I completely agree with that, BUT as a teacher, aren't I supposed to discourage him from playing overplays and tell them why they are bad in most situations? I guess it's a phase (I never went through) and maybe eventually, he'll start to see that that's not the way to play....

....I even played a game with him, letting him live everywhere he invaded and even kill one of my invasions and when I still won, he just left the game and played some one else...

you can lead horse to the water but can not make him drink.

I have this problem with my student: He intentionally forces life and death situations in his games. I asked him WHY he does this and he said that it is because the situations in tsumego problems don't appear in his games. I then proceeded to tell him that tsumego is used to teach reading and that overplaying to make things a life and death situations will hurt him when he gets to SDK (he's 12-11k on KGS now), but he won't listen. I even played a game with him, letting him live everywhere he invaded and even kill one of my invasions and when I still won, he just left the game and played some one else. Most of the time these tactics work ONLY because his opponents can't read far enough, but the reason he started playing Go was to beat me and I keep telling him that most people in the 3-1k range will NEVER fall for tricks like he's trying to pull (or even high to mid SDK either)

Please tell me what I should do before he engraves bad overplays into his head and ruins his games...

His name on KGS is zinoto for anyone who want's to play him to see what I'm talking about.

On the other hand, you shouldn't be throwing his nick out here on the internet for everyone to see it. I suggest you remove it asap. It would be bad enough if he came here and saw his teacher complaining about him to strangers, never mind if people he knew could see him being complained about.

He doesn't care. We've been going to the same school for years so I know this person in real life pretty well, so I know what he wouldn't mind. Heck, he may even like the range of opponents here on GD. I'm not really complaining; just asking for ways to deal with the problem. I'm new to teaching Go, so I don't know how to handle certain situations if I've never went through them. That's why I posted here because I knew that there's bound to be someone who had a student like this OR has been like this themselves.

I know some time has passed, but I felt it was time for an update. Experience has help him. He's not making (too many

) rash errors any more and his game has improved considerably. He's almost 9k on KGS now and yesterday he managed to beat me at 6 stones (his first win against me)

. He's started doing life and death now because he sees that it is needed in more than just games with stronger opponents. Now we just need to build up the REST of the Go Club at school and we'll be cool.

Author:	artboy598 [ Sat May 08, 2010 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:	A problem with a student
I have this problem with my student: He intentionally forces life and death situations in his games. I asked him WHY he does this and he said that it is because the situations in tsumego problems don't appear in his games. I then proceeded to tell him that tsumego is used to teach reading and that overplaying to make things a life and death situations will hurt him when he gets to SDK (he's 12-11k on KGS now), but he won't listen. I even played a game with him, letting him live everywhere he invaded and even kill one of my invasions and when I still won, he just left the game and played some one else. Most of the time these tactics work ONLY because his opponents can't read far enough, but the reason he started playing Go was to beat me and I keep telling him that most people in the 3-1k range will NEVER fall for tricks like he's trying to pull (or even high to mid SDK either) Please tell me what I should do before he engraves bad overplays into his head and ruins his games... His name on KGS is zinoto for anyone who want's to play him to see what I'm talking about.

Author:	oren [ Sat May 08, 2010 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A problem with a student
Just let him play the way he wants to. He's 12k and just playing games will help him get better.

Author:	artboy598 [ Sat May 08, 2010 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A problem with a student
oren wrote: Just let him play the way he wants to. He's 12k and just playing games will help him get better. I completely agree with that, BUT as a teacher, aren't I supposed to discourage him from playing overplays and tell them why they are bad in most situations? I guess it's a phase (I never went through) and maybe eventually, he'll start to see that that's not the way to play....

Author:	oren [ Sat May 08, 2010 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A problem with a student
You showed him when he lost. As you said, he will lose other games eventually. It's up to him if he wants to improve or if he's happy just playing the way he is. If you try to force the issue more, both of you will just end up not enjoying the situation. Keep offering to play him, and keep explaining why he's losing to you when you two play. That should be enough.

Author:	Magicwand [ Sat May 08, 2010 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A problem with a student
artboy598 wrote: oren wrote: Just let him play the way he wants to. He's 12k and just playing games will help him get better. I completely agree with that, BUT as a teacher, aren't I supposed to discourage him from playing overplays and tell them why they are bad in most situations? I guess it's a phase (I never went through) and maybe eventually, he'll start to see that that's not the way to play.... you can lead horse to the water but can not make him drink. only way is to let him be thirsty enough to drink. he will stay at that rank for a while and he will learn.

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Author:	ketchup [ Sat May 08, 2010 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A problem with a student
It doesn't seem like he wants to learn, so I'd say forget about it. Don't teach him. If he's going to show that much lack of caring for what you are teaching him, why are you teaching him? I see no reason to keep trying to teach someone who doesn't want to learn.

Author:	Phelan [ Sat May 08, 2010 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A problem with a student
Yep. If he likes playing that way, let him, and keep playing. He'll eventually reach a place where he can't beat other players and will have to naturally start trying playing more strategically. Just make sure he is having fun, and the people that play him too, and no one is harmed. Edit: My "Yep" above was to Oren's post. Magicwand basically said what I wanted to in much less words.

Author:	Solomon [ Sat May 08, 2010 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A problem with a student
artboy598 wrote: ....I even played a game with him, letting him live everywhere he invaded and even kill one of my invasions and when I still won, he just left the game and played some one else... I wouldn't bother with him anymore if this happened to me. This sort of behavior clearly demonstrates he is not grateful to have someone 6+ stones stronger teaching him for free.

Author:	CarlJung [ Sun May 09, 2010 12:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A problem with a student
Magicwand wrote: you can lead horse to the water but can not make him drink. Truth has been spoken. You can show your way, but you can't force it on him. He'll listen when he's ready for it. Besides, what kind of world would it be if we had to accept what others say as truth without thinking ourselves.

Author:	Li Kao [ Sun May 09, 2010 4:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A problem with a student
Just be patient and wait until he is a few stones better. Practicing reading never hurts, even if it slows his improvement for now. I used to always go for the kill since I'm relatively strong at fighting for life&death in close combat. At 7-8k a teaching game made me realize the advantages of attacking weak groups for profit and not for killing. And I think you need to show it with him taking the profit from attacking your weak group, and not the other way round. In my case it was a game where my moves were discussed during the game and I was allowed to take back a few blunders.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sun May 09, 2010 6:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A problem with a student
artboy598 wrote: I have this problem with my student: He intentionally forces life and death situations in his games. I asked him WHY he does this and he said that it is because the situations in tsumego problems don't appear in his games. I then proceeded to tell him that tsumego is used to teach reading and that overplaying to make things a life and death situations will hurt him when he gets to SDK (he's 12-11k on KGS now), but he won't listen. I even played a game with him, letting him live everywhere he invaded and even kill one of my invasions and when I still won, he just left the game and played some one else. Most of the time these tactics work ONLY because his opponents can't read far enough, but the reason he started playing Go was to beat me and I keep telling him that most people in the 3-1k range will NEVER fall for tricks like he's trying to pull (or even high to mid SDK either) Please tell me what I should do before he engraves bad overplays into his head and ruins his games... His name on KGS is zinoto for anyone who want's to play him to see what I'm talking about. Martin Buber said that the job of the teacher is to build a bridge to the student, and the job of the student is to cross the bridge. It sounds like you have built a bridge. He understands what you are saying. Still, he does not heed your advice. That is his problem -- if it is a problem. Everybody is different, everybody learns in different ways.

Author:	Stable [ Mon May 10, 2010 10:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A problem with a student
On the other hand, you shouldn't be throwing his nick out here on the internet for everyone to see it. I suggest you remove it asap. It would be bad enough if he came here and saw his teacher complaining about him to strangers, never mind if people he knew could see him being complained about.

Author:	artboy598 [ Mon May 10, 2010 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A problem with a student
Stable wrote: On the other hand, you shouldn't be throwing his nick out here on the internet for everyone to see it. I suggest you remove it asap. It would be bad enough if he came here and saw his teacher complaining about him to strangers, never mind if people he knew could see him being complained about. He doesn't care. We've been going to the same school for years so I know this person in real life pretty well, so I know what he wouldn't mind. Heck, he may even like the range of opponents here on GD. I'm not really complaining; just asking for ways to deal with the problem. I'm new to teaching Go, so I don't know how to handle certain situations if I've never went through them. That's why I posted here because I knew that there's bound to be someone who had a student like this OR has been like this themselves.

Author:	zenith [ Tue May 11, 2010 10:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A problem with a student
artboy598 wrote: He doesn't care. We've been going to the same school for years so I know this person in real life pretty well, so I know what he wouldn't mind. Heck, he may even like the range of opponents here on GD. I'm not really complaining; just asking for ways to deal with the problem. I'm new to teaching Go, so I don't know how to handle certain situations if I've never went through them. That's why I posted here because I knew that there's bound to be someone who had a student like this OR has been like this themselves. As others have said, just leaving him be for a while may be good, since you know them pretty well this wouldn't be a problem right? I think I can understand how your student feels as I'm going through a similar 'phase' at the moment. As a weaker player (or DDK in this case) the most frustrating thing is knowing my own weaknesses but lacking the ability to do something about them during a game. Having a game reviewed and wrong moves/overplays pointed out is all fine, but as soon as you play another game the given advice only applies loosely since everything is different. What I'm trying to basically say is that your student probably knows that forcing life and death situations in real games wouldn't get him very far when he reaches SDK level, so he's probably just experimenting at the moment on top of playing more games to get stronger. You seem to care about your student, which is nice

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Author:	zinger [ Tue May 11, 2010 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A problem with a student
Making overplays then fighting it out is the best way to learn what is an overplay and what isn't. But that is the kind of lesson one can get from experience. It sounds like right now, he isn't very interested in the kind of lesson a teacher can provide. So I agree, let him be for a while. Don't worry too much about it. As far as I'm concerned, if he keeps playing, you have succeeded as a teacher.

Author:	artboy598 [ Tue May 11, 2010 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A problem with a student
ok everyone, thanks for your input. I will sit back and watch for a while and let experience be the teacher.

Author:	artboy598 [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A problem with a student
I know some time has passed, but I felt it was time for an update. Experience has help him. He's not making (too many ) rash errors any more and his game has improved considerably. He's almost 9k on KGS now and yesterday he managed to beat me at 6 stones (his first win against me) . He's started doing life and death now because he sees that it is needed in more than just games with stronger opponents. Now we just need to build up the REST of the Go Club at school and we'll be cool.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A problem with a student
artboy598 wrote: I know some time has passed, but I felt it was time for an update. Experience has help him. He's not making (too many ) rash errors any more and his game has improved considerably. He's almost 9k on KGS now and yesterday he managed to beat me at 6 stones (his first win against me) . He's started doing life and death now because he sees that it is needed in more than just games with stronger opponents. Now we just need to build up the REST of the Go Club at school and we'll be cool. Great news!