How do you do Life & Death problem?

Rafa · **#21**

When i´m solving problems i usually try to visualize the moves, if i dont make it i pass over to the next one and later i go back and try again.

Phelan · **#22**

fwiffo wrote:

Lately I've been doing problems out of Making Good Shape (in what little time I've had for problems). Most are "How should black play to make good shape for his stones?" Well, I don't know what shape looks like, so I can imagine all sorts of different lines of play, but even on the easier ones, I won't be certain that I'm right. I know what life or death is, but shape is such a nebulous concept...

I don't think it's really possible to never look at the answers. Sure, you should do your best to be sure of the answer to a point, but certain tricks are just too hard to learn without having actually seen them at least once. It's almost like never letting stronger players point out better moves when you review your games. The Socratic method only goes so far.

I've been going through the problems as well, and from what I see, most of the answers are tesujis for shape, except for a few where it should be a common shape that usually occurs. I've often got the wrong order of moves, and see why it makes a lot of difference.
I agree with you, though, this book is mostly an intuition book, not a reading training book.

k43r · **#23**

I usually read everything the first time, because on 2nd time i always remember answers and it's boring to look through :< It's sad, because i've finished all my problems book already :<

Magicwand · **#24**

k43r wrote:

I usually read everything the first time, because on 2nd time i always remember answers and it's boring to look through :< It's sad, because i've finished all my problems book already :<

that is why you are a Dan level player.
even if you forget the answer after many month you still can solve them by analizing.

if you search www there are tons of problems you never seen.
why buy books when you have www.

Solomon · **#25**

Magicwand wrote:

k43r wrote:

if you search www there are tons of problems you never seen.
why buy books when you have www.

The same reason why some people prefer reading a paperback book rather than an e-book.

HKA · **#26**

Harleqin wrote:

I think that doing problems is mostly underrated.

Well, I agree with Harleqin's post, but I disagree with this initial premise.

I think we all know how important doing problems is, however, most of us do not enjoy the work, we would rather play, so this part of our go journey is underUSED.

Having seen young players progress in this game over my years of play, I can say without doubt, the ones that have improved the fastest are the ones who were always studying problems.

And of course, you must train yourself to do them in your head. Personally, I think a nice mix of rapid problems you can solve fairly easily, and challenging problems that may stump you is best.

I can see the point of "never" looking at the answers as building discipline, but I think strides can be made by simply not giving up too soon.

Bill Spight · **#27**

Suji wrote:

All in all, I think that both Araban and GoCat have good ideas. When I actually do tsumego, I'm going to somewhat blend their ideas. Though I think that Araban is right, with the idea that we all need to stretch our abilities. I'm going to start by never looking at the answers, because to improve I need to stretch, and later when pattern recognition becomes key, I'll start doing problems repetitively, maybe 3 out of 10 max, I'll look at the answer and focus on those.

Also, the point of Tsumego, IMO, is to learn something. As with all puzzles, if you're not learning anything you're not stretching enough since they're too easy or you're giving up too easily, again IMHO.

IMO, for DDKs pattern recognition is the most important thing. You need to build a go vocabulary. Reading is important, but you need to know the words.

OC, not everybody learns best the same way. However, I expect that there are ways of study that are generally effective. I think that the questions are empirical, and I do not know of any research directly applicable to tsumego.

But I would venture a guess. Let two groups of DDKs (not complete novices) study the same set of level appropriate tsumego problems for the same length of time (like one hour), without playing through them, except mentally. One group gets the problems without solutions, the other gets the problems with solutions on the same page. Wait one week to let memory fade. Then test them on a different set of problems. My guess is that the group that gets the solutions scores better on the test. At the dan level you might get the reverse.

judicata · **#28**

Most of the time:

I try to solve the problem in my head. Once I've found a solution, I make sure I'm write by looking at the solution or playing it out. If I cannot find a solution after a few minutes, I will usually look at the solution or play it out on the board.

Here is what I find helpful to me: After looking at the solution for a difficult problem, I go back and play it out in my head a few times, with variations. I think this really helps with reading, and I learn to spot different positions.

I don't always do this, though. Sometimes, I will just skip problems that are too hard and come back to them later.

k43r · **#29**

Magicwand wrote:

f you search www there are tons of problems you never seen.
why buy books when you have www.

Actually i have never found good set of entertaining problems in internet. EAch of them was simply boring >_>

Bill Spight · **#30**

k43r wrote:

Magicwand wrote:

f you search www there are tons of problems you never seen.
why buy books when you have www.

Actually i have never found good set of entertaining problems in internet. EAch of them was simply boring >_>

How about these?

http://www.hitachi.co.jp/Sp/tsumego/

http://igoigo21.hp.infoseek.co.jp/gentop.html

http://www.ishida-yoshio.jp/monthly/

http://homepage3.nifty.com/tenseki/gokyou1.html

Suji · **#31**

Bill Spight wrote:

Suji wrote:

All in all, I think that both Araban and GoCat have good ideas. When I actually do tsumego, I'm going to somewhat blend their ideas. Though I think that Araban is right, with the idea that we all need to stretch our abilities. I'm going to start by never looking at the answers, because to improve I need to stretch, and later when pattern recognition becomes key, I'll start doing problems repetitively, maybe 3 out of 10 max, I'll look at the answer and focus on those.

Also, the point of Tsumego, IMO, is to learn something. As with all puzzles, if you're not learning anything you're not stretching enough since they're too easy or you're giving up too easily, again IMHO.

IMO, for DDKs pattern recognition is the most important thing. You need to build a go vocabulary. Reading is important, but you need to know the words.

OC, not everybody learns best the same way. However, I expect that there are ways of study that are generally effective. I think that the questions are empirical, and I do not know of any research directly applicable to tsumego.

But I would venture a guess. Let two groups of DDKs (not complete novices) study the same set of level appropriate tsumego problems for the same length of time (like one hour), without playing through them, except mentally. One group gets the problems without solutions, the other gets the problems with solutions on the same page. Wait one week to let memory fade. Then test them on a different set of problems. My guess is that the group that gets the solutions scores better on the test. At the dan level you might get the reverse.

I see your point, though I do have a tendency to jump the gun at looking at the solutions. What would you say is an appropriate amount of time per problem?

HKA wrote:

Harleqin wrote:

I think that doing problems is mostly underrated.

Well, I agree with Harleqin's post, but I disagree with this initial premise.

I think we all know how important doing problems is, however, most of us do not enjoy the work, we would rather play, so this part of our go journey is underUSED.

Having seen young players progress in this game over my years of play, I can say without doubt, the ones that have improved the fastest are the ones who were always studying problems.

And of course, you must train yourself to do them in your head. Personally, I think a nice mix of rapid problems you can solve fairly easily, and challenging problems that may stump you is best.

I can see the point of "never" looking at the answers as building discipline, but I think strides can be made by simply not giving up too soon.

So true.

Bill Spight · **#32**

Suji wrote:

I see your point, though I do have a tendency to jump the gun at looking at the solutions. What would you say is an appropriate amount of time per problem?

Interesting question.

Lin Haifeng (Rin Kaiho) suggests taking up to 10 min. on a single crucial move in a game, assuming that the game lasts 1 hour. I. e., up to 1/3 of your time on a single move! When I was in training as a dan player I allotted myself 15 min. for a problem. (I spent 1 hr. on 4 problems.

) Now that I do problems for fun, it's more like 15 sec. :mrgreen:

Here is a thought: If you have game records that show how much time you spend on a move, see what the longest time is that you take for a single play. Obviously you are willing to spend that much time figuring out where to play. Double it.

kokomi · **#33**

Bill Spight wrote:

Suji wrote:

I see your point, though I do have a tendency to jump the gun at looking at the solutions. What would you say is an appropriate amount of time per problem?

Interesting question.

Lin Haifeng (Rin Kaiho) suggests taking up to 10 min. on a single crucial move in a game, assuming that the game lasts 1 hour. I. e., up to 1/3 of your time on a single move! When I was in training as a dan player I allotted myself 15 min. for a problem. (I spent 1 hr. on 4 problems.

) Now that I do problems for fun, it's more like 15 sec. :mrgreen:

Here is a thought: If you have game records that show how much time you spend on a move, see what the longest time is that you take for a single play. Obviously you are willing to spend that much time figuring out where to play. Double it.

Longest, in one 1 hour tournament, i spent 20 minutes on one move, trying to kill, and 15 minutes on the following move.

So on that local problem i spend 35 minutes for two moves, double it would be 1 hour and 10 mintues. :twisted:

Bill Spight · **#34**

kokomi wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

Suji wrote:

I see your point, though I do have a tendency to jump the gun at looking at the solutions. What would you say is an appropriate amount of time per problem?

Interesting question.

Lin Haifeng (Rin Kaiho) suggests taking up to 10 min. on a single crucial move in a game, assuming that the game lasts 1 hour. I. e., up to 1/3 of your time on a single move! When I was in training as a dan player I allotted myself 15 min. for a problem. (I spent 1 hr. on 4 problems.

) Now that I do problems for fun, it's more like 15 sec. :mrgreen:

Here is a thought: If you have game records that show how much time you spend on a move, see what the longest time is that you take for a single play. Obviously you are willing to spend that much time figuring out where to play. Double it.

Longest, in one 1 hour tournament, i spent 20 minutes on one move, trying to kill, and 15 minutes on the following move.

So on that local problem i spend 35 minutes for two moves, double it would be 1 hour and 10 mintues. :twisted:

Well, if you are willing to spend 20 min. on a move, then don't let me discourage you.

Doubling that gives 40 min., but if you want to take longer, feel free.

I do have a couple of suggestions. If you are going to take that much time, give some thought to organizing your reading. There is more than one way to do it, find what works for you.

As for the level of problem, the best level is one where you can solve half the problems in the time you give yourself.

Good luck!

Suji · **#35**

Bill Spight wrote:

Suji wrote:

I see your point, though I do have a tendency to jump the gun at looking at the solutions. What would you say is an appropriate amount of time per problem?

Interesting question.

Lin Haifeng (Rin Kaiho) suggests taking up to 10 min. on a single crucial move in a game, assuming that the game lasts 1 hour. I. e., up to 1/3 of your time on a single move! When I was in training as a dan player I allotted myself 15 min. for a problem. (I spent 1 hr. on 4 problems.

) Now that I do problems for fun, it's more like 15 sec. :mrgreen:

Here is a thought: If you have game records that show how much time you spend on a move, see what the longest time is that you take for a single play. Obviously you are willing to spend that much time figuring out where to play. Double it.

Ok, looks like I'm going to have to pay attention to the clock since I don't know if glgo (IGS), or CGoban3 (KGS) does timestamps.

kokomi · **#36**

Bill Spight wrote:

Well, if you are willing to spend 20 min. on a move, then don't let me discourage you.

Doubling that gives 40 min., but if you want to take longer, feel free.

I do have a couple of suggestions. If you are going to take that much time, give some thought to organizing your reading. There is more than one way to do it, find what works for you.

As for the level of problem, the best level is one where you can solve half the problems in the time you give yourself.

Good luck!

How to organize reading? Is there a way to train it other than doing L&D?

k43r · **#37**

Bill Spight wrote:

k43r wrote:

Magicwand wrote:

f you search www there are tons of problems you never seen.
why buy books when you have www.

Actually i have never found good set of entertaining problems in internet. EAch of them was simply boring >_>

How about these?

http://www.hitachi.co.jp/Sp/tsumego/

http://igoigo21.hp.infoseek.co.jp/gentop.html

http://www.ishida-yoshio.jp/monthly/

http://homepage3.nifty.com/tenseki/gokyou1.html

Thanks, i'll try these ones, but could you tell me where to click in 2nd link to find them?

Stefany93 · **#38**

Well I do a lot of problems, but I never look at the answers . Even if i can't solve a problem I save it for other time and skip to the next one. To be honest, these problems are really very difficult, and are not for people with weak hearts :geek:

oren · **#39**

Stefany93 wrote:

Well I do a lot of problems, but I never look at the answers . Even if i can't solve a problem I save it for other time and skip to the next one. To be honest, these problems are really very difficult, and are not for people with weak hearts :geek:

You should probably start looking at the answers to make sure you're getting it right.

kokomi · **#40**

oren wrote:

Stefany93 wrote:

Well I do a lot of problems, but I never look at the answers . Even if i can't solve a problem I save it for other time and skip to the next one. To be honest, these problems are really very difficult, and are not for people with weak hearts :geek:

You should probably start looking at the answers to make sure you're getting it right.

Yes, if you learn what you did was wrong in real game, that would be too bloody. :twisted:

How do you do Life & Death problem?

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