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Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
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Author:  Alberich [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
In chess it's legal for players to request being able to look at the chessboard from the opponent's point of view. Is there a similar methodology for Go players who'd like to do the same thing? Is there a swivelable goban like Scrabble Deluxe that allows players to change the angle of the board so they can see different perspectives on the game flow?
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
Stand up and walk behind your opponent? ; )
Author:  palapiku [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
Does it help?
Author:  Falcord [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
I don't know if it's allowed, but I can't imagine why anyone would want to do that other than as some sort of psychological warfare.

The few occasions in which I had to change perspective on a board, it threw me completely off-balance. I have a really hard time getting into the game again, so I'd stay away from doing that. Maybe it's just me =P.
Author:  topazg [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
It's something you probably won't feel the urge to do as you get stronger. I remember being thrown completely by it when I was around 10k, now it wouldn't make the slightest difference to me. I think that's mainly because in chess there's definitely a "your side / my side" element, where as in Go there's just a board with stones on. The perspective may change, but each side is still just as significant as each other side, there are no movements or promotions or anything, and the shapes remain the same.

I wouldn't worry about it :)
Author:  Laman [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
i haven't heard about such situation described in rules, i believe the players just go with SoDesune's advice.

palapiku wrote:
Does it help?

it allows you to take a fresh look at the board, and reduces biases from your previous plans and local successes / loses. for the same reasons it is hard to follow the game when it is being replayed from your opponent's point of view.

and turning upside down is also useful when judging layout of text on a poster without being distracted by the content
Author:  Mef [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
I'm assuming you mean in a tournament (in a casual game you can do what you wish so long as you can convince your opponent to finish the game).

In practice, I would imagine that if your opponent agrees to it and it does not disrupt the other games around you it would be ok. If there were a dispute about it......After briefly brushing back up on the AGA tournament rules, I would say it comes down to the TD's discretion as to whether it was an undue disturbance for your opponent, or whether without doing so it would restrict your access to the board. If I were to guess what would happen, I would say it's reasonable to stand up to get a top-down view allowing you to see the whole board, but the process of actually turning the board or walking around to your opponent's side of the board would likely end up disturbing the boards around you and be discouraged or forbidden (this might be different if you have a special case like a low chair, or high table that doesn't offer a good viewing angle of the whole board). If you wished to truly engage in gamesmanship (note: I do not endorse this, just describing how I read the rules...) as long as it is your turn to play you could go ahead an spin the board "disrupting the position." At that point it's up to you to restore the position (spin the board back) prior to making your move, and if you're unable to do so risk defaulting the game.

Really I think the most important point is taken as a straight quote --

AGA Tournament Rules Section V wrote:
Go is a game steeped in tradition, courtesy, and respect for one's opponent. During tournament play, a player shall generally conduct him/herself with a minimum of behaviour that is disruptive or irritating to other players.


If you can do this in a way that doesn't bother your opponent or those around you, great, otherwise explore other options.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
I've found that a quarter turn helps. I get up, walk to the side of the table, and pretend that I'm kibbitzing my own game. It is amazing how many good ideas I have then.
Author:  Alberich [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
I'm asking this question because I recently watched a Youtube video of Rita Pocsai 4d of Hungary against Laura Avram 2d of Romania at the 2011 European Women's Go Championship. I was struck by a brief look at this game on a pin up board...but the view was clearly incorrect. The view they showed of that game was sideways...not the way Rita Pocsai and Laura Avram actually played the game. I suppose it really doesn't make a difference either way because the result of the game was still the same...but it made me think of this issue about the correct appearance of the goban and whether it matters if the board can be turned around...not correctly reflecting the actual way the game progressed.
Author:  palapiku [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
Some notes:

1) Go is not chess. The board is completely symmetrical. There are no ranks or files. Instead there are lines (first, second, third, fourth) that go all the way around the board.

2) Face to face, the players look at the board from opposite directions. Online, they look at it from the same direction. This makes no difference.

3) Traditionally Black makes his first move in the upper right corner. Which is the lower left corner for White. Or the upper right corner for both in an online game. The board is usually transcribed from Black's perspective, so common fuseki tend to always face the same way. For example a sanrensei is almost always on the right side of the board. In the example you described, had they played a sanrensei, it would be on the top or on the bottom instead. That would actually look a bit strange.
Author:  speedchase [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
There really isn't any reason sanrensei can't be on the top, unless that is another convention.
Author:  Tami [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
Japanese go bans are not actually completely symmetrical! They are very slightly longer than wide, to compensate for visual foreshortening.

This can even have an influence on gameplay: somewhere I read about how in the 80s or 90s when the Takemiya/KK rivalry was at its fiercest Kobayashi would answer Takemiya`s opening move at the other end of the board (i.e., in Takemiya's near right) to ensure that Takemiya`s sanrensei could only be built on the narrow-looking side!

I don't know whether Korean or Chinese boards use the same visual principle or not.
Author:  palapiku [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
speedchase wrote:
There really isn't any reason sanrensei can't be on the top, unless that is another convention.

The lower right corner is the most convenient one for a right-handed person to play in. The upper left is the least convenient one.

In a typical face to face game, B would open in the upper right.

Most of the time W chooses parallel fuseki, so W plays on her lower right - B's upper left. This finishes the courtesy ritual where B stretches all the way across the board to allow W to calmly play on the most convenient corner. Now there's only one direction for sanrensei.

The alternative for W is to stretch all the way to the least convenient corner, so W wouldn't do this unless she really wants to make a point - like in the case Tami mentioned.

If W chooses diagonal opening instead, B is still more likely to choose sanrensei on the side, because, again, it involves playing in B's most convenient lower right corner instead of stretching all the way across the board to the upper left.
Author:  Kirby [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
Tami wrote:
Japanese go bans are not actually completely symmetrical! They are very slightly longer than wide, to compensate for visual foreshortening.

...


It is true that they are longer than wide, but I don't believe that this detracts from symmetry:

Quote:
sym·me·try/ˈsimitrē/
Noun:
The quality of being made up of exactly similar parts facing each other or around an axis.


It is not necessary that the aforementioned axis lie along the diagonal of the board, for example.
Author:  rhubarb [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
Kirby wrote:
It is true that they are longer than wide, but I don't believe that this detracts from symmetry:

Quote:
sym·me·try/ˈsimitrē/
Noun:
The quality of being made up of exactly similar parts facing each other or around an axis.


It is not necessary that the aforementioned axis lie along the diagonal of the board, for example.


But a square has more symmetries than a(ny other) rectangle. A square board is symmetrical in every way (around/across every axis) that a properly rectangular one is, and then some.
Author:  Alguien [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
Laman wrote:
and turning upside down is also useful when judging layout of text on a poster without being distracted by the content


In a position where you'll most certainly lose, turning the goban upside down could help.

Unless your opponent remembers the position and can set it up with the stones he recovers from the floor.
Author:  Phelan [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
speedchase wrote:
There really isn't any reason sanrensei can't be on the top, unless that is another convention.

I've played sanrensei on the top when I played top right, and my opponent replied on my lower right. This was online, though, I've never seen it live.
Edit: Alguien: http://senseis.xmp.net/?NuclearTesuji ;-)
Btw, what happened to the Sensei's forum tags?
Author:  Alberich [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
Here's a related question...are you allowed to use either left or right hand when placing stones on the board depending on the situation? For example, placing a stone with your left hand and using the right hand to quickly touch the clock? In western chess this behavior is strictly prohibited. You have to use only one hand for both the move and the clock.
Author:  Phelan [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
I think most western go tournament rules say you have to hit the clock with the same hand you play. Not sure elsewhere.
Author:  Bonobo [ Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turning the goban around during play. Is this allowed?
Funny … I remember that when I regularly played Go with a friend in the end-80s we sometimes turned the board 90 degrees every dozen or so moves in order to train ourselves. Today I think it wouldn’t make a difference anymore.
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