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19x19 games are for beginners?
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Author:  Alberich [ Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  19x19 games are for beginners?
I'm having a hard time figuring out why blitz games of 5 minutes on 9x9 size gobans is considered for beginners. I've been playing against Dariush 6.0 at this size and from what I'm experiencing - there's no way this level can be called for beginners. According to the Wiki page comparing go and western chess a 9x9 game size can yield up to 10x120th power number of games - the same number western chess can theoretically offer...all this on the same dimensions as on western chess is played on....an 8x8 board which when using go rules and stones...is called 9x9 iGo.
Author:  Alberich [ Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  19x19 games are for beginners?
Sorry for the header...I meant 9x9 go games.
Author:  xed_over [ Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 19x19 games are for beginners?
Alberich wrote:
Sorry for the header...I meant 9x9 go games.

you should be able to edit it
Author:  ProtoJazz [ Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 19x19 games are for beginners?
I dont know about the blitz part, but when I was starting out it was explained to me that the reason people teach with 9x9 games is
because the new player only has to wory about fighting. About winning more territory in this exchange then the other player
They dont have to wory about what might be going on in the other quadrents on the board like a 19x19. And the game is over
faster so that it can be reviewed and improved upon sooner.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 19x19 games are for beginners?
ProtoJazz wrote:
I dont know about the blitz part, but when I was starting out it was explained to me that the reason people teach with 9x9 games is
because the new player only has to wory about fighting. About winning more territory in this exchange then the other player
They dont have to wory about what might be going on in the other quadrents on the board like a 19x19. And the game is over
faster so that it can be reviewed and improved upon sooner.


Quote:
They dont have to wory about what might be going on in the other quadrents on the board like a 19x19.


Actually, they have to worry more about that. ;)

I often find 9x9 games harder to review than 19x19 games. E. g.,

"Why did I lose this game?"

"Well, I think it might have been at move 4, but I'm not sure."


Edited for punctuation. ;)
Author:  Alberich [ Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  19x19 games are for beginners?
xed_over wrote:
Alberich wrote:
Sorry for the header...I meant 9x9 go games.

you should be able to edit it


Actually I tried but since I'm using Tapatalk on the iPad using the new iOS 6.0 it won't let me edit the header.
Author:  oren [ Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 19x19 games are for beginners?
Cho U is teaching his kid on 4x4. He wrote a book and helped publish software so others can use it. I'm not sure I would recommend it for anyone besides kids, but I thought it was interesting.
Author:  jts [ Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 19x19 games are for beginners?
Different people have different reasons for encouraging beginners to start on 9x9. Here are some that occur to me:

1. You want to teach two beginners the rules, have them encounter all sides of the game (opening, middle, end), and then teach them a bit more.
2. Beginners tend to think very, very seriously when they are filling in the dame. Fewer dame, less thinking.
3. Life and death is the heart and soul of go, and beginners could spend hours and hours playing games on a 19x19 board before they ever even get close to a life and death situation. 9x9 is a memento mori.
4. Sometimes you want to play a teaching game with someone, or get a sense of someone's level, without spending too long on it.
5. Go is more fun when you're focused, and it's hard to focus for two hours when you're just starting.
6. Beginners' games often involve truly senseless blunders, and these are less painful when it's easy to resign and start over again.
7. It's easier for beginners to count 14 points of territory than 44.
8. They don't need to bring their own boards to the club.
9. The ladders are much shorter.
Author:  Phelan [ Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 19x19 games are for beginners?
Just to add a little something to jts' post, who I think covered the major reasons: being faster to play, it's easier to get more games under your belt at your first sessions, while you have someone who can teach you.

I've also seen people suggest 5x5, which I used to teach a few people, and it works.
Author:  shapenaji [ Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 19x19 games are for beginners?
One more thing,

It's easy for people to get "lost" on a large board, with no idea as to where to go.

It's the reason why so many people pick up the game, try to play it with their family, and then put it back down again... the game goes on and they just have no idea where the action is.

With 9x9, the action is there, they can't avoid it even if they want to.
Author:  oren [ Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 19x19 games are for beginners?
I'll also add that knowing when the game is over is a lot easier to explain on 9x9. Take beginners to a 19x19 board and they will find a way to fill in every available point on the board.
Author:  Euphony [ Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 19x19 games are for beginners?
Quote:
a 9x9 game size can yield up to 10x120th power number of games - the same number western chess can theoretically offer...
-- Alberich

It seems to me this initial post is suggesting that the board should be smaller than 9x9, not bigger.

oren's post noting a 4x4 board used by Cho U is interesting. I am no expert, but I usually start with a 5x5 board when teaching beginners.

There is also a variant where the game ends after the first capture takes place called "Capture One." If no capture occurs, counting occurs as normal. It changes the strategy a bit for more advanced players, but as a beginner, usually this helps with understanding capture.
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