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| Is the secret to winning just winning the sides? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6892 |
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| Author: | Alberich [ Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Is the secret to winning just winning the sides? |
I have to ask this question because I've been playing Go using a 13x13 goban against the computer and it seems to me the way to win these games is to ensure you control the sides. Without this it becomes impossible to expand territory and survive on the inside without it. Is this true or are there exceptions to this? |
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| Author: | Sverre [ Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is the secret to winning just winning the sides? |
Alberich wrote: I have to ask this question because I've been playing Go using a 13x13 goban against the computer and it seems to me the way to win these games is to ensure you control the sides. Without this it becomes impossible to expand territory and survive on the inside without it. Is this true or are there exceptions to this? This kind of question is a little vague, I'm not entirely sure I get what you are asking. The sides are important, but not more important than the corners, and on 19x19 not necessarily more important than the center. If by "without controlling the sides" you mean that every one of your corners is physically sealed in, then yeah, that's a very bad position to be in. Side and center access are very important when playing in the corner, balanced by concerns about strength vs. weakness and corner territory. If you mean you should start by playing the side hoshi instead of the corners then no, going for the corners first is the usual strategy because they are important bases for expanding to the sides and center later. If you could post some actual positions to illustrate what you mean I think you could get more relevant comments. I don't understand your post well enough to offer any advice beyond the age-old proverb "corners, then sides, then middle". After the corners are occupied the next focus is usually on the sides. |
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| Author: | jts [ Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is the secret to winning just winning the sides? |
I second the suggestion that you post a game to be reviewed. |
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| Author: | Alguien [ Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is the secret to winning just winning the sides? |
Alberich wrote: I have to ask this question because I've been playing Go using a 13x13 goban against the computer and it seems to me the way to win these games is to ensure you control the sides. Without this it becomes impossible to expand territory and survive on the inside without it. Is this true or are there exceptions to this? The way to win is to ensure you control more territory than your opponent. Territory is a closed wall. You can see it as a circle. Stones are your only tool to enclose territory. Territory in the corners is ensured with less stones (50% of the wall is already there. Territory in the walls is next, 25% of the wall is already there. Territory that uses no board walls is next, as the circle will have to be made with 100% stones. Your conclusion, which is correct but partial, may come from usually sharing the corners with your opponent (thus concentrating on walls next). Your next learning step can be to lose a game while having all corners, but for that you'll need a better opponent than a bot. Just go to a teaching room and ask for such a game "I'd like to lose a game having all corners. Would someone be so kind as to play a game giving me all 3-3 points as handicap?". You could also try to beat the computer starting from that position: |
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| Author: | Alberich [ Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is the secret to winning just winning the sides? |
Sverre wrote: Alberich wrote: I have to ask this question because I've been playing Go using a 13x13 goban against the computer and it seems to me the way to win these games is to ensure you control the sides. Without this it becomes impossible to expand territory and survive on the inside without it. Is this true or are there exceptions to this? This kind of question is a little vague, I'm not entirely sure I get what you are asking. The sides are important, but not more important than the corners, and on 19x19 not necessarily more important than the center. If by "without controlling the sides" you mean that every one of your corners is physically sealed in, then yeah, that's a very bad position to be in. Side and center access are very important when playing in the corner, balanced by concerns about strength vs. weakness and corner territory. If you mean you should start by playing the side hoshi instead of the corners then no, going for the corners first is the usual strategy because they are important bases for expanding to the sides and center later. If you could post some actual positions to illustrate what you mean I think you could get more relevant comments. I don't understand your post well enough to offer any advice beyond the age-old proverb "corners, then sides, then middle". After the corners are occupied the next focus is usually on the sides. I've been looking at the ASR League video given by Inseong Hwang and find he gave this lecture and claimed players should be more concerned about securing the sides and not the corner. I'm guessing many people here have seen this video. |
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| Author: | Alguien [ Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is the secret to winning just winning the sides? |
Alberich wrote: I've been looking at the ASR League video given by Inseong Hwang and find he gave this lecture and claimed players should be more concerned about securing the sides and not the corner. I'm guessing many people here have seen this video. I won't tell you how to interpret that, but my interpretation is: "play corners thinking about the resulting walls" not "disregard corners". You need corners to play them with a wall objective in mind. As a bad analogy: if someone tells you to buy a house thinking about what you'll need in ten years, don't interpret that as "I should live in the street for nine and a half years." |
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| Author: | p2501 [ Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is the secret to winning just winning the sides? |
Alberich wrote: Sverre wrote: Alberich wrote: I have to ask this question because I've been playing Go using a 13x13 goban against the computer and it seems to me the way to win these games is to ensure you control the sides. Without this it becomes impossible to expand territory and survive on the inside without it. Is this true or are there exceptions to this? This kind of question is a little vague, I'm not entirely sure I get what you are asking. The sides are important, but not more important than the corners, and on 19x19 not necessarily more important than the center. If by "without controlling the sides" you mean that every one of your corners is physically sealed in, then yeah, that's a very bad position to be in. Side and center access are very important when playing in the corner, balanced by concerns about strength vs. weakness and corner territory. If you mean you should start by playing the side hoshi instead of the corners then no, going for the corners first is the usual strategy because they are important bases for expanding to the sides and center later. If you could post some actual positions to illustrate what you mean I think you could get more relevant comments. I don't understand your post well enough to offer any advice beyond the age-old proverb "corners, then sides, then middle". After the corners are occupied the next focus is usually on the sides. I've been looking at the ASR League video given by Inseong Hwang and find he gave this lecture and claimed players should be more concerned about securing the sides and not the corner. I'm guessing many people here have seen this video. Could it be that he meant that, since people generally know about 'corner>side>center', that they put to much weight on corners? |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is the secret to winning just winning the sides? |
If we are thinking about the same video, Hwang didn't say play the sides before the corners, he said when choosing how to answer an approach to your corner stone you should focus on which side is more valuable. You've already played the corners first. To answer the thread title, Is the secret to winning just winning the sides? No, there is quite a lot more to winning in Go! 
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| Author: | Mef [ Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is the secret to winning just winning the sides? |
Uberdude wrote: To answer the thread title, Is the secret to winning just winning the sides? No, there is quite a lot more to winning in Go! The secret to winning is just having 1 more point than your opponent at the end. (= |
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| Author: | Sverre [ Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is the secret to winning just winning the sides? |
Alberich wrote: I've been looking at the ASR League video given by Inseong Hwang and find he gave this lecture and claimed players should be more concerned about securing the sides and not the corner. I'm guessing many people here have seen this video. Yes, sides are important, but starting at corners is a very effective way to seize the sides. A corner stone forms a stable base to extend from to make side-based frameworks, while a lone stone on the side is often less stable. |
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| Author: | oren [ Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is the secret to winning just winning the sides? |
Mef wrote: The secret to winning is just having 1 more point than your opponent at the end. (= I prefer the one less giant dead group than my opponent has. 
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| Author: | SmoothOper [ Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is the secret to winning just winning the sides? |
Alberich wrote: I have to ask this question because I've been playing Go using a 13x13 goban against the computer and it seems to me the way to win these games is to ensure you control the sides. Without this it becomes impossible to expand territory and survive on the inside without it. Is this true or are there exceptions to this? It is an astute observation that it is difficult to live or control territory in the center, the counter problem is that stones on the side are isolated and difficult to make work together. |
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| Author: | Wessik [ Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is the secret to winning just winning the sides? |
There is no secret to winning. You must bust your chops, and learn more about the game than you opponent. An opponent who always goes for the sides will lose to a more flexible opponent. |
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