Whether or not I allow the undo for a misclick ultimately depends on my mood.
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| Author: | Annihilist [ Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Missclick undo? |
Is it not a fair request for an undo for a missclick? I've had a couple of people deny that for me (and fair game, I understand), but I'd think it's a fair request myself. And I think it's fair if undo is clicked before the opponent plays his/her move. I understand that you don't know whether it's a missclick or whether I'm lying. But if I hit undo before my opponent plays, that would be (more often than not) a genuine indicator. And wouldn't it, by anyone's standards, be a much more interesting game if you play against the moves your opponent genuinely intended to make? If you have a "no undo" principle, if your opponent misses their intended move, isn't that a) a less interesting game, and b) if you win, an empty victory? After all, you preyed on an opponent's mis-coordination, and emerged victorious - you didn't actually beat their playing. I'm curious as to what other people think about this. I ask because I just played a game where I missclicked, which altered the entire course of the game, resurrecting my opponent's dead group and allowed my opponent to live with ~a quarter of the board there. I won, so no gripes, but I still wish to know what you think of the overall idea. |
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| Author: | golem7 [ Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
I tend to allow undos, especially when they are requested very fast after the move and when it's obvious to me that the stone was misplaced (for example a strange deviation in a common sequence or a clear bad shape I wouldn't expect from a player of similar strength). But there are limits too, like multiple undo requests in a single match. Taking care where you place your stone can be regarded as a courtesy towards your opponent, like on a real board. But of course I know they can happen, especially on notebook touchpads. When I misclick (very rarely) I'm also annoyed if my opponent doesn't let me undo, but I try to regard these situations as a challenge - like playing with a handicap. Makes a win so much sweeter. And if you lose, it also doesn't feel much like a loss (just like it probably doesn't feel like a real win for your opponent). Just play the next game and don't worry too much about it. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
There is a game setting issue as well. Many people think that in blitz, mis-clicking under time pressure is part of the game and an undo request is inappropriate. Since I try to avoid blitz myself, I am usually easy on undo requests but I have sympathy for the other POV when conditions are different. |
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| Author: | tchan001 [ Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
1. It is unfair to ask for an undo for a misclick if the person setting up the game tells you that there is no undo as a condition of the game. 2. If you are playing a blitz absolute time game, asking for an undo is asking your opponent to let you waste your time. |
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| Author: | jts [ Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
I tend to decline undos (assuming I don't know my opponent - friends are different). Any game is going to be seriously affected by obvious mistakes, and if I allowed an undo for that I would begin to brood over whether I deserve one for this. The only exception would be a move that is clearly on the wrong part of the board. |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
I prefer undos for misclicks but not for misthinks. Misclicks are usually obvious. My typical challenge line when waiting for a game is "Undo for slip of mouse, not of mind". I've only had one problem with that in which an opponent agreed to the game under those implied terms, then did not grant an undo on an obvious misclick. So now, if I don't know the opponent, I ask for explicit agreement within the first ten moves. If I don't get it, I drop the game. |
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| Author: | Faro [ Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
I agree with Joaz. Clicking a place you did not intend is vastly different then thinking a move is good and then changing your mind a few seconds later. I tend to only play with friends online, so of course pretty much any undo's are allowed. However if it was a game with a stranger, I would allow the undo if it look like an obvious misplaces stone and not simply an ugly move. I would also agree that the game is better with these moves left in. If the other person made a mistake, It is better for their game to see what happens as a result. I don't think it lessens the game any, so many games have ended with people saying "If only i hadn't made that one move." It's just part of the game. |
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| Author: | Annihilist [ Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
golem7 wrote: I tend to allow undos, especially when they are requested very fast after the move and when it's obvious to me that the stone was misplaced (for example a strange deviation in a common sequence or a clear bad shape I wouldn't expect from a player of similar strength). But there are limits too, like multiple undo requests in a single match. Taking care where you place your stone can be regarded as a courtesy towards your opponent, like on a real board. But of course I know they can happen, especially on notebook touchpads. I agree.When I misclick (very rarely) I'm also annoyed if my opponent doesn't let me undo, but I try to regard these situations as a challenge - like playing with a handicap. Makes a win so much sweeter. And if you lose, it also doesn't feel much like a loss (just like it probably doesn't feel like a real win for your opponent). Just play the next game and don't worry too much about it. jts wrote: I tend to decline undos (assuming I don't know my opponent - friends are different). Any game is going to be seriously affected by obvious mistakes, and if I allowed an undo for that I would begin to brood over whether I deserve one for this. The only exception would be a move that is clearly on the wrong part of the board. See if it were me, I would be feel the same way if I was granted a win because of an opponent's slip of the hand. If I won a game because of my opponent's clumsiness, and not skill, then I would see that as cheap win and not worthwhile. As such, I generally grant missclick undos. And I'd rather play against genuine, thought out moves instead of a mistaken placement.Faro wrote: I agree with Joaz. Clicking a place you did not intend is vastly different then thinking a move is good and then changing your mind a few seconds later. I can only speak for myself, but generally I don't notice a bad move until I see its repercussions, i.e, when my opponent responds. Thus, my logic is that if the undo request is placed between moves, it is likely a misclick.Also, on a real board, the likelihood of misplacing a stone is quite slim compared to misclick probability - especially given you can easily touch up an ambiguous placement. As such, you are most often going to play the move you intended - and likewise your opponent does the same. So is it really fair for your opponent to disallow the move you intended to make if your co-ordination was off that moment? Because in a real game it would not happen this way. It seems the game should be considered a game of skill and mind, and not co-ordination (although traditionally, there is something to be said for that on a real board). |
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| Author: | Yukontodd [ Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
Up until recently, I have always given one undo, and then typed "Only one, though!" to my opponent. This to head off any more requests, because we've all had that kid that demands undos repeatedly even after you've gotten annoyed enough to start denying them. I make a misclick once a year or so, and when I do, I just let it lie and don't ever mention it to my opponent. Of course, teaching games, free games, and games with people I've played with for years are always a different story. But anyway, one occasion a little while ago, my opponent asked for a takeback, I granted it, typed, "Only one!" or something equally succinct, and my opponent took great offense and typed something about thinking highly of myself. By the time I typed "Sorry, no offense intended," he'd resigned his opening and logged out. So, now I don't know. Is what I did rude? I think maybe he was Japanese, is it more rude in that culture? I've been wondering. |
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| Author: | Splatted [ Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
For the same reasons others have stated, I like to take back misclicks (but not misthinks) and let my opponent do the same, but I can see why some people would feel differently. It is a little annoying to start reading out the implications of a move and then get a message from your opponent saying they want to play something else, but if the undo request is made very quickly and rarely I think this is minimal and has far less impact than most misclicks. @Yukontodd: I don't know about other cultures but your approach seems very reasonable to me. Maybe he misunderstood and thought you were saying he could only take back the last move, as opposed to going back several moves, and thought you were implying he'd been playing badly. Maybe you should say "just this once" instead of "only one". |
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| Author: | Mike Novack [ Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
This is a question related to the software, does it or does it not use "ghosting" so you can see where the stone you are about to place will be placed as the cursor is moved. I know that I have a problem "dropping" stones where not intended. |
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| Author: | jts [ Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
Mike Novack wrote: This is a question related to the software, does it or does it not use "ghosting" so you can see where the stone you are about to place will be placed as the cursor is moved. I know that I have a problem "dropping" stones where not intended. Most do have ghosting, but it isn't just that... It's very easy to click your mouse by mistake while idling the cursor on the screen. |
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| Author: | SmoothOper [ Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
I always turn on double click, its much more reliable. I generally only permit undo's if it is an interesting game. If a real yawner, or I am loosing especially badly, no undo. |
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| Author: | Solomon [ Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
Whether or not I allow the undo for a misclick ultimately depends on my mood. |
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| Author: | Bazoo [ Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
I've only ever asked for an undo once. I was playing on a tablet on KGS and managed to press pass rather than confirm (for those unfamiliar, you click an intersection and then press confirm). I've never understood why the pass button is so large and placed where it is. More amusingly, I managed a misclick on OGS too. I was playing on a phone and had to swipe across to hit done. I think this was how I played T19 in the middle of a big centre fight. |
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| Author: | judicata [ Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
In normal play (and I practically never play blitz), I do not think it is rude/inappropriate to request undos for genuine misclicks, unless (per tchan's comment) your opponent made "no undos" a condition of playing. But even if that is not a condition of the game, it is (as OP suggested) entirely fair for your opponent to deny your request. I routinely permit undos that are requested quickly after the play and before I respond (and request them on ocassion). I admit that I get irritated if my opponent denies an undo request for a genuine misclick, but I don't "ragequit" or tell them they're rude, etc. At most I might say "ok, fair enough." These are just my perceptions, and don't apply to tournament or blitz games. |
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| Author: | Inkwolf [ Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
Splatted wrote: @Yukontodd: I don't know about other cultures but your approach seems very reasonable to me. Maybe he misunderstood and thought you were saying he could only take back the last move, as opposed to going back several moves, and thought you were implying he'd been playing badly. Maybe...I once played someone who asked for an undo, and I allowed it, only to discover he meant to have me allow several consecutive undos until he had a way to save the group I had just captured. When I wouldn't allow him to go back three or four moves, he sulkily resigned. I usually allow undos within reason, but I sometimes regret it when they say, "Oops, misclick" when changing an obviously poorly-planned move and replacing it with a better one. I have only had one person refuse an undo, and they (and their higher-level friend & observer) got in my face later for winning by playing an unreasonable invasion and taking advantage of my opponent's subsequent self-atari. 
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| Author: | NoSkill [ Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
There is only one answer to this: Undo for misclicks. Here is why: People who don't undo for misclicks end up getting this greedy ideaology that a win is a win, and etc. That leads down a bad path, you lose your drive to improve and forget your goals. If you ask me, playing an honest, fair game is the best way to improve because you don't have to think "should i have undo" "should... etc" and you aren't afraid of losing. It is the best. Also, if the game was in real-life would you have misclicks? Go wasn't a game made online. For a follow up: http://youtu.be/3C7gKinR7Ts?t=3m19s Look at sai's reaction to hikaru, about a "misclick" |
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| Author: | xed_over [ Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
In this past summer's AGA-Tygem Pro tournament, one of the players played a bad move that surprised everyone watching. We asked him about it after the game, he said "I misclicked" (this was not a online game) |
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Missclick undo? |
NoSkill wrote: For a follow up: http://youtu.be/3C7gKinR7Ts?t=3m19s Look at sai's reaction to hikaru, about a "misclick" But don't forget this: http://youtu.be/D4Jgt4wExiQ?t=19m45s |
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