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 Post subject: Re: [news] European Professional Go System established.
Post #41 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:33 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:

One thing is pretty unclear to me: shall the EGF collect future sponsor money, generate income by means of initiating or supervising professional activities or initiate media interest (is Eurosports 3 for mind sports an idea)? Or shall the new professionals take over these tasks?






Quote:
In principle a Grand SIam Tournament should be our "blow off" to the publicity for
getting more attention for our game, under cultural aspects and under sports aspects
as well. Therefore the EGF is in charge to generate a maximum of publicity
(embassies, nel//spapers, television-contacts, internet, cultural institutes,). A top-level
event like this will prove quite effective in helping EGF to draw in sponsorship in
Europe.



Quote:
CEGO will help EGF on its way to a more business oriented operation mode in Europe


Sounds like that will be EGF duty, but I doubt they would mind the players helping them in that regard =)

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Post #42 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:39 am 
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Here's a Q & A file sent by the EGF.

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 Post subject: Re: [news] European Professional Go System established.
Post #43 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:19 am 
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So all this is news, right? Not public before the first post? Seems that haewgs might be European Go's version of Wikileaks.

Does this need to be approved by EGF members, or at least a board, or does the EGF President have the authority on his own? If it needs approval, has this happened already, in secret?

It seems weird that this has moved so far, without announcement, scrutiny, or debate.

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 Post subject: Re: [news] European Professional Go System established.
Post #44 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:26 am 
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wineandgolover wrote:
So all this is news, right? Not public before the first post? Seems that haewgs might be European Go's version of Wikileaks.

Does this need to be approved by EGF members, or at least a board, or does the EGF President have the authority on his own? If it needs approval, has this happened already, in secret?

It seems weird that this has moved so far, without announcement, scrutiny, or debate.


It was known to the EGF member associations for a few months now. Questions have been asked; not all have been answered. There was a hectic vote, so there could be few discussions. Most countries were so enamored by the idea that they voted "yes" without any internal discussions.

The contract has been signed, and that's that. One of the EGF positions was also "I don't want half of Europe discussing this with a quarter knowledge." Like in politics, where important things are negotiated behind closed doors.

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Post #45 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:46 am 
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Marcel Grünauer wrote:
One of the EGF positions was also "I don't want half of Europe discussing this with a quarter knowledge." Like in politics, where important things are negotiated behind closed doors.
As opposed to a democracy, where people get to vote.

Don't get me wrong, I favor the idea. I just don't understand the secrecy. If it's truly a good idea, why not announce it, brag about it, debate it, and vote on it?

If half of Europe has insufficient knowledge, why not publicize the proposed agreement? Isn't that better than excluding them from the debate?

The political equivalent is a treaty. Certainly those are negotiated behind closed doors. But then the legislature is invited to debate and vote on it. They are also usually privy to the knowledge that a treaty is being negotiated, too.

It sounds like a process that was regretfully kept unnecessarily secret to me. Must make the EGF elite feel important, though.

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 Post subject: Re: [news] European Professional Go System established.
Post #46 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:48 am 
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wineandgolover wrote:
Must make the EGF elite feel important, though.

These people spent years building contacts, talking to people, negotiating, much of it in their own time and on their own dime. They manage to negotiate a contract that is a huge win for the EGF. They let the legislative representatives from the member organisations know months in advance and let them vote on the proposal.

And then you have the temerity to put all of that down with a trite "Must make the EGF elite feel important"?

Yeah. F*ck you too. :mad:

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Post #47 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:01 am 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
Yeah. F*ck you too. :mad:


Watch your language. What is *your* stake in this?

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Post #48 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:07 am 
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Marcel Grünauer wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
Yeah. F*ck you too. :mad:


Watch your language. What is *your* stake in this?


I see too much hate directed towards hard-working go volunteers too often.

IMO, wineandgolover gravely insulted a group of people he probably does not even know over an issue that he has hardly any information about. The language I used was meant to convey just how grave I consider the insult.

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Post #49 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:10 am 
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The deal was negotiated by the elected EGF officials, with an appropriate mandate. The "secrecy" was due to courtesy and to normal business practice I would guess. Martin will probably explain at the AGM how the feedback he received from the various nations shaped the deal, as well as giving a fuller explanation of it to the public.
I am still surprised at the "no comment" leak, if you are against something why not just say so politely? I sort of wonder if the BGA knows that pdf file is there.

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 Post subject: Re: [news] European Professional Go System established.
Post #50 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:20 am 
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wineandgolover wrote:
Marcel Grünauer wrote:
One of the EGF positions was also "I don't want half of Europe discussing this with a quarter knowledge." Like in politics, where important things are negotiated behind closed doors.
As opposed to a democracy, where people get to vote.

Don't get me wrong, I favor the idea. I just don't understand the secrecy. If it's truly a good idea, why not announce it, brag about it, debate it, and vote on it?

If half of Europe has insufficient knowledge, why not publicize the proposed agreement? Isn't that better than excluding them from the debate?

The political equivalent is a treaty. Certainly those are negotiated behind closed doors. But then the legislature is invited to debate and vote on it. They are also usually privy to the knowledge that a treaty is being negotiated, too.

It sounds like a process that was regretfully kept unnecessarily secret to me. Must make the EGF elite feel important, though.


They are an organization in which membership is voluntary, so you essentially get to vote by participating or not.


And they might not have announced more because they might not know themselves. This thing seems to be set up pretty long term, I don't think anything has to happen before 2015, so maybe they wanted to wait until their plans have taken a more solid form.


I'd say they can feel important, seems to me like they brought quite a bit of money towards the go players in Europe, great job on that.

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Post #51 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:48 am 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
wineandgolover wrote:
Must make the EGF elite feel important, though.

These people spent years building contacts, talking to people, negotiating, much of it in their own time and on their own dime. They manage to negotiate a contract that is a huge win for the EGF. They let the legislative representatives from the member organisations know months in advance and let them vote on the proposal.

And then you have the temerity to put all of that down with a trite "Must make the EGF elite feel important"?

Yeah. F*ck you too. :mad:

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Please re-read the post i was replying to, and how it described the decision to keep things hushed. I may have characterized the few making decisions for the many as the elite, but that post explained that it was because the subject was "important," not my word-choice.

I appreciate Javaness' clarification that the mandate was appropriate and look forward to learning more. His contribution was helpful and appreciated.

Unlike yours. Your personal attack adds nothing to the dialog. Though I am far from gravely insulted.

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Post #52 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:21 pm 
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I opened a thread in the german go forum as well, Martin Stiassny answered directly to several questions there. See: http://www.dgob.de/yabbse/index.php?topic=5048.0 for those who read German.

Sleeping a night over the plan I believe a crucial part is the official association of Go and Chinese Culture Centers. This might actually be what gets potential European partners / sponsors interested. Strengthening European Go by making it a go-between between China and Europe, that might work. I am much more sceptical about other parts, why should tournaments that opted out of the European Cup in 2013 suddenly spent not some hundred but several thousand Euro to attract a very small amount of top players (unless they already got new sponsors in the process). Especially, when you could attract the very same players when you put such an amount of money into prize money directly. I don't yet see people embracing the amateur diploma scheme. etc.

Unlike politics it is completely in the power of ordinary players to ruin even the already signed treaty by stirring trouble in their local association etc. - yet I don't see why one should do so, after all it can be at best a breakthrough for the EGF and at worst it won't do any harm.

I do, however, take offence at comments that normalize secrecy. According to recent news it is also normal in politics that MPs are spied on, government policy is written by private companies, parliaments vote on decisions they weren't properly informed about, constitutions are just an obstacle for daily government business, but this certainly doesn't mean, that I want one of the few organizations that I joined by my own decision to follow this lead.

The signed contract is a 10-year plan that certainly would have survived and may even have benefitted from half a year of due process.


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Post #53 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:59 pm 
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wineandgolover wrote:
Please re-read the post i was replying to, and how it described the decision to keep things hushed. I may have characterized the few making decisions for the many as the elite, but that post explained that it was because the subject was "important," not my word-choice.

I appreciate Javaness' clarification that the mandate was appropriate and look forward to learning more. His contribution was helpful and appreciated.

Unlike yours. Your personal attack adds nothing to the dialog. Though I am far from gravely insulted.


My post was not meant as a personal attack against you, and I apologize if you perceived it that way. The language I used was used to underscore how strongly I felt about the issue in general.

I also do not mind at all if you criticize how the negotiations were conducted or disclosed, even if I do not agree with that criticism. My post pertained specifically and only to your last sentence "Must make the EGF elite feel important, though", which was also the only thing I quoted from your post.

I consider that sentence a direct personal attack against the people involved, implying that the main reason they had for the amount and time of disclosure was to make themselves appear important. If it was not meant that way, then please explain how it was meant.

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Post #54 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:12 pm 
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To make my position clear - I think it's a great thing, respect the EGF's work and wish them all the best. I just don't like this secrecy. Assuming it's all bona fide - and I have no indication to the contrary - it should be possible to discuss it as such.

Presenting a finished contract and then telling the member states "vote immediately so the contract can be signed" is somewhat bad aji.


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Post #55 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:30 pm 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
If it was not meant that way, then please explain how it was meant.

You said:

Quote:
These people spent years building contacts, talking to people, negotiating, much of it in their own time and on their own dime. They manage to negotiate a contract that is a huge win for the EGF. They let the legislative representatives from the member organisations know months in advance and let them vote on the proposal.

And then you have the temerity to put all of that down with a trite "Must make the EGF elite feel important"?

(emphasis mine)
whereas it seems fairly clear to me that wineandgolover was putting none of that down, and was admonishing them only for the months of secrecy. It's perfectly reasonable to respect someone for one thing they've done and be annoyed with them for another, and I don't know why you're deliberately blurring the boundaries.

Faintly back on topic: I admit, I'm curious too. And if this thread isn't the official announcement (which I presume it's not), then it seems someone fairly high up on the BGA is also fed up with the secrecy.

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Post #56 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:53 pm 
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HermanHiddema wrote:

I consider that sentence a direct personal attack against the people involved, implying that the main reason they had for the amount and time of disclosure was to make themselves appear important. If it was not meant that way, then please explain how it was meant.


Herman, you swear at people then justify your actions by falsely assigning motivations to their writing. That may be the way you roll, but this approach is not worthy of a reply. Nevertheless...

I, and others here, are just skeptical about excessive organizational secrecy. I am completely in favor of a European pro system. I just believe that good ideas can and would survive scrutiny. "Fellow EGF members, we have here a proposal to partner with some benevolent Chinese go lovers and develop a pro-go system. Lets discuss it, then vote on it." That seems far preferable than talking to selected national leaders, secretly getting enough of their buy-in, then signing a binding agreement without a public review period. If this mischaracterizes the process, then I will gladly modify my position and tenor.

Come on, don't you think that it's bizarre that this was Wiki-leaked? Isn't it even more odd that it needed to be?

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Post #57 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:56 pm 
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billywoods wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
If it was not meant that way, then please explain how it was meant.

You said:

Quote:
These people spent years building contacts, talking to people, negotiating, much of it in their own time and on their own dime. They manage to negotiate a contract that is a huge win for the EGF. They let the legislative representatives from the member organisations know months in advance and let them vote on the proposal.

And then you have the temerity to put all of that down with a trite "Must make the EGF elite feel important"?

(emphasis mine)
whereas it seems fairly clear to me that wineandgolover was putting none of that down, and was admonishing them only for the months of secrecy. It's perfectly reasonable to respect someone for one thing they've done and be annoyed with them for another, and I don't know why you're deliberately blurring the boundaries.


You're right, wineandgolover's remark was only aimed at the perceived secrecy, not at the proposal in general, so I worded that badly. As I explained, my response only dealt specifically with what I considered an unwarranted personal attack made against the people involved.

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Post #58 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:01 pm 
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wineandgolover wrote:
Herman, you swear at people then justify your actions by falsely assigning motivations to their writing. That may be the way you roll, but this approach is not worthy of a reply. Nevertheless...

I, and others here, are just skeptical about excessive organizational secrecy. I am completely in favor of a European pro system. I just believe that good ideas can and would survive scrutiny. "Fellow EGF members, we have here a proposal to partner with some benevolent Chinese go lovers and develop a pro-go system. Lets discuss it, then vote on it." That seems far preferable than talking to selected national leaders, secretly getting enough of their buy-in, then signing a binding agreement without a public review period. If this mischaracterizes the process, then I will gladly modify my position and tenor.

Come on, don't you think that it's bizarre that this was Wiki-leaked? Isn't it even more odd that it needed to be?


I assigned motivations, and perhaps I did so falsely, which is why I asked you to clarify your point of view in my last post. But to me, this is not at all about the procedure, this is about the EGF volunteers involved. So I'll ask again. Do you, or do you not, think that the people who brokered this deal kept it a secret just to make themselves feel important?

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Post #59 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:15 pm 
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Too much discussion about semantics in this thread. Can we stop this, please! I believe there is plenty to discuss about the content of the treaty (and the way it was communicated).


Last edited by tapir on Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #60 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:18 pm 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
So I'll ask again. Do you, or do you not, think that the people who brokered this deal kept it a secret just to make themselves feel important?

HermanHiddema wrote:
My post was not meant as a personal attack against you, and I apologize


I haven't and won't make your mistake of assigning, or even guessing at, other people's motivations. And I accept your apology.

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