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| An interesting question http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=900 |
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| Author: | Violence [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | An interesting question |
Something I thought up while taking a break. The game is Batoo. The question is... how much komi would you bet, and why? |
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| Author: | topazg [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An interesting question |
As Black, 20. As White, 25 (because I'd bet 20 as Black). Black playing first seems just huge. |
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| Author: | Aphelion [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An interesting question |
Maybe 30 points, the value of the ponnuki? |
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| Author: | Violence [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An interesting question |
Really!?! I would bet 50 at the minimum... Maybe 80. My rationale is that when you take the middle stone, the other two become almost worthless. It's like black gets to play 4 moves in a row! |
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| Author: | lightvector [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An interesting question |
As black, I would probably bet around 35 or so. Maybe slightly more. I'd feel very good about winning by at least that on board if I got to play first, especially since eating those base stones of white is worth (5? 6?) points each, so the two that remain will be an annoying burden for white. And if white outbid me, then I'd also be very happy to play second. It looks like the fight after white connects is unfavorable for black, but it doesn't seem to be 35 points unfavorable. Maybe I'm completely off though. As white, I think I would cry. If black goes first, he has an overwhelming position on board. If white goes first, white merely has a favorable position on board. So if black uses his bid to split the difference well, white is at a huge disadvantage, regardless of what he does. |
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| Author: | MountainGo [ Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An interesting question |
Black already has an advantage. If Black plays first, Black is monstrously ahead. If White plays first, Black is moderately behind. So Black can be conservative and bet around 25. |
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| Author: | prokofiev [ Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An interesting question |
Violence wrote: Really!?! I would bet 50 at the minimum... Maybe 80. My rationale is that when you take the middle stone, the other two become almost worthless. It's like black gets to play 4 moves in a row! I'm not one to question your judgement, but 80 in particular seems huge. Perhaps you're forgetting to divide by two (komi is half the value of a move)? Say the ponnuki is worth 30 points. Plus you get a 5 point capture. Plus white made two almost worthless moves (for a loss of at most 15 points each?), and maybe will lose the 5 point bonus for one of them. We're up to 70 now, but it's white's move, so let's subtract 7.5 (let's say 8). So black is maybe up 62 points (small board vagaries not withstanding). Compare to the alternative of white going first: Let's say black loses one of the 5 point stones, and my guess is white is up not just sente but a full move, so guess another 15 points. That's 20. So adding those two I can get your 80 (in fact 82) with some plausble but possibly generous estimations, but now we have to divide by two, getting 40 or so. Caveat: It seems possible that all scores should be reduced somewhat in batoo because of the hidden move, which forces us to play conservatively, so maybe what looks like a 62 point advantage won't actually be convertible to such? |
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