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Trash talk
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9796		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:51 am ]
Post subject:  Trash talk
Getting ready for the Superbowl tonight, I read a thought-provoking article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25977211 by Adama Gopnik. The basis was that a row has erupted over trash talk by an American-football player. Many people condemned him, but even more appear to have taken his side.

Although the article was entertainingly written it was deficient in some ways. For example it ignored the impact of the code of chivalry on sportsmanship. More to the point, it ignored the fact that other cultures have developed similar codes of sportsmanship without any obvious influence from Victorian England.

Indeed, I have the strong impression that for many western go players the oriental go code is one of the more attractive parts of the game. The "I was lucky" post-match interview with the winner will be familiar from western sport, but perhaps the most significant different and attractive element is the bond between teacher and pupil in Japan and Korea, which results in acts such as a player deliberately losing a game so as to wipe out a sad place in the record books previously held by a teacher.

Of course, not every Japanese or Korean player is a model of a sportsman. The trash talk by Takemiya on co-pupil Kobayashi is but one example well known even here. But Japanese go journalist Akiyama Kenji once wrote a book (囲碁とっておきの話 - Choicest Go Stories) replete with such tales. My own favourite was about two title-match players who refused to sit near each other on the train except for the publicity photos. I enjoyed it because it created a delicious dilemma for the escorting journalist - who to sit with?

But on the whole I think Japanese and Korean players come out well in the sportsmanship stakes. Do you agree?

In the case of China, I confess to ignorance. Sport of the modern type is relatively new in China and when introduced has been intensely politicised by the government as a way of showing that China can beat the rest of the world. This applied even in go. Under such circumstances I can imagine the players have rather different emotions than when they are playing just for themselves. This conflict notoriously bedevilled Rui Naiwei's career. Do these feelings carry over to ordinary players and fans? I would welcome some insights on sportsmanship in China.

Of course, readers of "Tales from the Water Margin" will have recognised a code in China of chivalry reminiscent of Richard the Lionheart and Robin Hood. That makes me wonder whether societies everywhere concoct a code of sportsmanship (i.e. ritualised combat) in similar eras as part of a biological response to evolution. Is there is a Blind Referee (of course!) rather than a Blind Watchmaker?

Will the blind referee be the one who is trashed later tonight?
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:37 am ]
Post subject: 
John Fairbairn wrote:
...as part of a biological response to evolution.
One thing that came to mind:

Monkey Fairness Experiment :)
Author:  mbv [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trash talk
John Fairbairn wrote:
... perhaps the most significant different and attractive element is the bond between teacher and pupil in Japan and Korea, which results in acts such as a player deliberately losing a game so as to wipe out a sad place in the record books previously held by a teacher.

I'm not sure what you mean by "wipe out a sad place"?
As an aside, I used to enjoy playing a variation of cribbage which we called "loser's crib". The idea was to avoid acquiring points and so turn the game upside down. The player to reach 121 points was the loser. All your tactics were to give yourself the worst possible hand, which was surprisingly difficult. I've sometimes wondered if it would be possible to engineer a Loser's Go variant somehow.
And thanks for all your threads and comments over the years by the way. I'm a long time lurker of this forum (and admirer of yours :oops: )
Author:  illluck [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trash talk
John Fairbairn wrote:
[...]
But on the whole I think Japanese and Korean players come out well in the sportsmanship stakes. Do you agree?

In the case of China, I confess to ignorance. Sport of the modern type is relatively new in China and when introduced has been intensely politicised by the government as a way of showing that China can beat the rest of the world. This applied even in go. Under such circumstances I can imagine the players have rather different emotions than when they are playing just for themselves. This conflict notoriously bedevilled Rui Naiwei's career. Do these feelings carry over to ordinary players and fans? I would welcome some insights on sportsmanship in China.
[...]


Thanks for the very interesting post! I confess that I'm not an expert, but do have some exposure from following the news a bit from Chinese media and forums.

As a whole, I don't think the situation in China is that different with regards to sportsmanship. There are of course scandals (I think there was one case relating to an expensive Go board a few years back, another relating to the bone age test required for the pro entrance tournament, and a third relating to two female pro aspirants), but curiously those tend to be non-playing related. I actually can't think of parallels with the intrigues of Gennan, Shusai's behaviour against Go and Karigane, the stories of Cho Hun-hyeon taking off his socks, putting them beside the board and humming during games, or that incident with stone filling due to absolute time limits a few years back. I presume part of the reason is that there is still a rather strong cultural influence in Go and that Go has not been considered to be as important (by the government) as some other, more well-known sports.

The situation with Rui is quite complicated. My understanding is that it wasn't due as much to conflicts between playing for China and just playing for herself, but rather of a conflict between her and a more senior player, who was supervising her on a joint trip between China and Japan players. She went alone with a top Japanese player to discuss a game in his room one evening, which caused criticism from the senior player who gave a public reprimand. Such accusations were a big deal for a young woman in China at the time, and that was a big reason of why she left. I suppose you could argue that had she been playing independently this issue never would have arose or that there would have been less impact had her game schedule not been set by the organization, but I personally think it was a tragedy rooted in something larger than Go. Thankfully, I think such incidents are difficult to understand, if not unthinkable, nowadays.

Edit: Actually, the controversies relating to Gennan aren't really over-the-board either (as far as I know), so that was probably a bad example.
Author:  mbv [ Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trash talk
I would still like to know what you meant by a player "deliberately losing a game so as to wipe out a sad place in the record books previously held by a teacher.".

I feel naive but I've never thought that kind of thing occurred in professional games?(Where everyone invests years to compete and win?!) You're referring to an informal situation between teacher and pupil? Do you have some examples or could you explain it a bit? Thanks.
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trash talk
I don't really have time to deal with mere curiosity, especially when I've mentioned the stories before, but here's a quote from the GoGoD Encyclopaedia section on records:

Quote:
See Shortest with proper play. Apart from that, the previous shortest was 26 moves when Honma Akio 7-dan resigned against Mizokami Tomochika 4-dan in the preliminaries of the 42nd Oza in 1994 in Japan. It is believed Honma resigned this game to make it the shortest in history in place of the previous shortest loss, by his teacher Takahashi Shigeyuki 7-dan in 31 moves against Kano Yoshinori 8-dan in the preliminaries of the 21st Honinbo in 1965.

At the time the loss by Takahashi was kept quiet, and a game almost as short at 33 moves, between Haruyama Isamu and Maeda Nobuiaki later in the same year was widely reported as the then shortest ever game.
Author:  mbv [ Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trash talk
Sorry I asked. I'm aware of how busy you are. I hope I didn't take up too much of your time.

Don't worry, I'll bear in mind how much you've written elsewhere and I won't bother you again.

(In fact, I won't bother coming back to this forum again so there's no need to even reply.)*

*How to cut off your nose in spite of your face. I take it back :oops:
Author:  Bill Spight [ Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trash talk
mbv wrote:
I've sometimes wondered if it would be possible to engineer a Loser's Go variant somehow.


There is a go variant where the first player to capture loses. See http://senseis.xmp.net/?AntiAtariGo :)
Author:  tekesta [ Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trash talk
Maybe it's a bit like when Māori do their haka dance. A bit of "pre-game intimidation".

Although, in the case of the American football player in question, it was more like pre-game goading.
Author:  hyperpape [ Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trash talk
It was post-game. On the final play, Sherman (who did the boasting), deflected the ball that was intended for Crabtree, letting Sherman's team-member intercept it (and end the game).

He then attempted to shake the hand of Crabtree (whether he was being sportsmanlike or mocking in doing so is disputed) and Crabtree shoved him. Sherman then made a choking motion toward Crabtree's quarterback. The post-game interview came shortly after.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sh ... n_football) (see the controversies section)
Author:  mbv [ Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trash talk
Bill Spight wrote:
mbv wrote:
I've sometimes wondered if it would be possible to engineer a Loser's Go variant somehow.


There is a go variant where the first player to capture loses. See http://senseis.xmp.net/?AntiAtariGo :)


The best idea I could come up with was to this:
Rule 1- In order to win, you must lose by a certain margin (5 points? 10?).
Rule 2- Something like, you cannot play within your own territory if your territory is safe. If a play is made within your own territory and it appears to be unnecessary, determine whether the territory was safe at that point (or after the game?). Breaking this rule, you forfeit the game.

The rules attempt to keep some kind of structure in place so that the game at least resembles go, as opposed to a series of hundreds of silly moves. I'm not sure if it would work though. :-? (If anyone is willing to try it then we could play it in a new thread).
Author:  skydyr [ Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trash talk
mbv wrote:
Rule 2- Something like, you cannot play within your own territory if your territory is safe. If a play is made within your own territory and it appears to be unnecessary, determine whether the territory was safe at that point (or after the game?). Breaking this rule, you forfeit the game.


What is safe? Is removing aji or a ko threat safe, and so illegal? Is it safe and illegal if you play an inside move too early? If you can't read it out but there is a sequence that means that you don't need to play a move you played, did you just forfeit, despite playing in good faith?
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