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Offline otenki
 Post subject: Not correct tsumego ?
Post #1 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:18 am 
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Okay so someone from my local go club and me have been working ourselves through "jump level up" series.

For those who don't know it: http://senseis.xmp.net/?JumpLevelUp

We howhever have a problem with one of the problems in the book:
You need to capture white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


The answer is fairly straight forward:
I've put it in hide tags if someone wants to try to solve it :-)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 3 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . 1 . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


This is all fine but we have a problem with this variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


Resulting in...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 5 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 . 7 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


Are we missing something or is this problem wrong ?

Thx,
Otenki
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #2 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:57 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]

This post by EdLee was liked by 3 people: betterlife, otenki, SoDesuNe
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Offline otenki
 Post subject: Re: Not correct tsumego ?
Post #3 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:44 am 
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Thanks, that seems to solve it! :-)
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Offline newmorning
 Post subject: Re: Not correct tsumego ?
Post #4 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:46 am 
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When white connects with 4 above black 3 instead of the hane, he wins the capturing race i think
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Offline HermanHiddema
 Post subject: Re:
Post #5 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:28 am 
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EdLee wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c How now?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline msgreg
 Post subject: Re: Not correct tsumego ?
Post #6 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:40 am 
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EdLee solution for Black 3 seems better, the original "Results in" seems ok to my beginner eyes. Can someone explain why this is bad? White can't approach either group without self atari, and if/when white tenuki's, Black at "a" seems to kill.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 5 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 . 7 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


To answer HermanHiddema's conundrum, seems
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c How now?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]


I'm a beginner, so I'm just speculating with my DDK eyes. Thanks for letting me try. what am I missing?

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Offline otenki
 Post subject: Re: Not correct tsumego ?
Post #7 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:46 am 
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msgreg, the problem is white can capture. So that variation is for sure not good for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 8 O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | 0 X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 5 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 . 7 3 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]

This post by otenki was liked by: msgreg
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Offline tj86430
 Post subject: Re: Not correct tsumego ?
Post #8 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:51 am 
Gosei

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msgreg wrote:
EdLee solution for Black 3 seems better, the original "Results in" seems ok to my beginner eyes. Can someone explain why this is bad? White can't approach either group without self atari, and if/when white tenuki's, Black at "a" seems to kill.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 5 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 . 7 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


To answer HermanHiddema's conundrum, seems
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c How now?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]


I'm a beginner, so I'm just speculating with my DDK eyes. Thanks for letting me try. what am I missing?

How about:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | 3 X O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline logan
 Post subject: Re: Not correct tsumego ?
Post #9 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:11 am 
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The books have a few more incorrect problems -- about 1-2 per vol. I've circled all the incorrect problems, however only vol. 3 is with me right now. If you're interested I can post all the erratas in a few weeks when I get a hold of the books again.

Vol. 2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3. Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O , . . . . . , .
$$ | . X O . O . . O . . .
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

Book solution:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3. Book solution
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 X X . . . . . .
$$ | . O X O 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . X O 2 3 . . . . , .
$$ | . X O 1 O . . O . . .
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

Correct solution:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3. Solution 1, :w4: @ :bt:
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 6 X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 8 2 X X . . . . . .
$$ | 7 O Y O 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . X O 3 9 . . . . , .
$$ | . X O 1 O . . O . . .
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

This post by logan was liked by 2 people: illluck, newmorning
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Offline newmorning
 Post subject: Re: Not correct tsumego ?
Post #10 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:58 am 
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That would be great Iogan!
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Offline otenki
 Post subject: Re: Not correct tsumego ?
Post #11 Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:31 am 
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Yeah it would be great to document, you could do it here or on http://senseis.xmp.net/ ?
Not sure which is the best spot for it.

Thanks!
Otenki
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