making waves in the opening

cherryhill · #1

so in opening, guo juan will talk about how it's better to have waves than for all your stones to be on the third line, flat and low. like she would say k16 is better than k17 because k17, combined with e17 and q17 is flat and low.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i have tried to adhere to this but i wonder if i take it too far by playing on the 4th line when i should be playing on the 3rd line. i don't have any examples unfortunately but, sometimes i think i make a mistake when i'm extending by scouting ahead on the 4th line when it should be on the 3rd. and i wonder (and this is my main question) if the wave should only occur BETWEEN two secure areas, almost after the fact rather than making a wave in sequence by going from low to high to low to high to low. and that going low, low on the two extremes, then hitting a high between them is the proper way to go about it

in opening theory made easy otake will talk about 3rd line is completion, 4th line is development. i never play on the 4th line as an attempt to complete, usually, i will play on the 4th if there is potential room to follow it up with a 3rd line move. but that depends on whether or not my opponent responds and cuts me off.

but i don't know if this is misunderstanding the idea of waves, the reason being is that i have yet to be punished for it, so i haven't seen it backfire though i could be forming a bad habit.

also my standard opening tactic usually goes like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

looking to hit k15 before white can. this is something i picked up in opening theory made easy because he says it can make for a nice big moyo if black can get k15. but i wonder if i should not be assuming i can (i almost always get it at the level i play on) but should do something else because it can be kind of flat

jts · #2

It's hard to discuss the specifics of your opening because normally B doesn't get five moves in a row, so where W is playing on the other side makes a difference. But in general this sounds like a very reasonable opening and (imho) shows adequate good sense for the DDK level.

3rd line vs. 4th line - it's hard to talk about this without talking about your overall strategy, or your aims for different regions of the board. You're right that a 3rd-4th formation is much more efficient if you can finish it off as 3rd-4th-3rd, so the 4th line move is most reasonable when either (a) you expect to get the initiative to come back and finish the position, or (b) the area is mainly interesting to you for sketching out a large claim. A 3rd-3rd formation doesn't claim many points and doesn't particularly benefit from an expansion to 3rd-3rd-4th, but the fact that it doesn't need another move makes it stable, so it's well suited to an area of the board where you want to settle quickly.

hyperpape · #3

I had always thought it was better to play K16 than K17, but in the (relatively rare cases) where professionals have a chance to complete this framework, they choose the choices equally.

I don't know what the rest of the board looks like in those circumstances, but I would tend to think that you probably don't need to worry. If you like the low move, then play it.

Most of the time, White will play on black's side of the board before this position is reached however. White may approach the single 4-4 stone, or play the wedge in the middle of the side.

moyoaji · #4

"Making waves" is a great way to think about the opening. A general principle is this: a 4th line stones wants to go down to the 3rd line and a 3rd line stone wants to come up to the 4th line.

Here are some generally accepted follow-up moves that show this principle:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ---------------- $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------[/go]

Likely you've seen this move many times. The 4-4 stone by itself is totally open to a corner invasion. It generates plenty of influence, but no real territory. The knight's move down works to turn this influence-oriented stone into solid points. (The invasion in the corner can still work, but white will either live very small or need to start a ko to survive.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ---------------- $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . 1 . | $$ | . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------[/go]

This is the most common move to build from a 3-3 opening. The 3-3 is very secure, but it has almost no influence, so this long knight's move builds toward the center and side to give the corner some much-needed potential.

Obviously random waves of stones aren't that good, but when done with a purpose and some direction they can be great. It is well that you are studying opening theory early on. I wish I had.

I got to SDK level because I know how to fight and break up moyos (hence my name). Your opening looks good. It is a slightly modified orthodox fuseki (which is very common even in high level games). But my standard opening... well... it used to be this mess:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If I could get the double enclosures this would work out fine and black would have giant potential on that half of the board, but I rarely ever did. When I did, I got ahead in my games, but my opponents quickly learned to do an approach move to one corner or the other (or both) and when they played a 4-4 on both opposite corners that was pretty powerful.

Now that I know more about opening principles, I prefer either the low Chinese or Korean fuseki (still experimenting with both, we'll see which one I fall into). The orthodox is also good - I've played it with success, but I do not like the san-ren-sei and a big reason for that is what you are describing: it doesn't make waves.

making waves in the opening

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